Summicron 28 vs Elmarit 24mm on a M9

[Iron Creek]

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I've got a bit of a problem. I ordered a Summicron-M 28mm f/2.0 from B&H only to have a 24mm f/2.8 Elmarit show up instead. The outer flimsy box was marked as a 28 however the actual lens box shows 24mm. Clearly someone at Leica was on an extended lunch break when they packed this lens up.

Both are the same price. The Elmarit is slightly slower at f/2.8 however it is much wider thus giving me some focal distance from my 35mm.

While I hadn't about going wider than 28 I must admit I like the test images I've taken and the appeal of going slightly wider than 35 has merits. Either way I will contact B&H as soon as they are open however since I'm such a new guy with Leica I'd like to get opinions. Which is a better glass, the Elmarit or Summicron or it it just a marketing hype. Any other remarks/suggestions are welcome as well.

Don

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[jplomley]

I've had both, the 24 Elmarit is without a doubt higher resolution than the 28 Cron and of higher contrast. But if you absolutely need f/2 and prefer a lower contrast/smoother more classic rendering, than the 28 Cron is your best choice. Because I also had the 35 Cron Asph, when I picked up the M9 I sold the 28 Cron and kept the 24 Elmarit as the spacing made much more sense.

[Iron Creek]

Thanks for your input Jeff. I'm leaning towards keeping the 24 as it is wider and I really don't need f/2. Is there a major difference between the two names or is it just marketing hype?

 

Don

[gib_robinson]

I've had both, the 24 Elmarit is without a doubt higher resolution than the 28 Cron and of higher contrast. But if you absolutely need f/2 and prefer a lower contrast/smoother more classic rendering, than the 28 Cron is your best choice. Because I also had the 35 Cron Asph, when I picked up the M9 I sold the 28 Cron and kept the 24 Elmarit as the spacing made much more sense.

 

I, on the other hand, sold the 24mm Elmarit and bought a 28 'cron and will add a 21mm biogon.

 

In my view it's a question of personal taste. While I have not tested the two lenses, I have used both and I'm not at all sure the 24mm is a better lens with respect to IQ but since they are certainly both competent lenses, the issue for me was focal length and ease of use. I like the 28mm because I don't need an external finder and because I find the focal length to be useful even though I have a 35mm.

 

That's certainly a personal choice. I also want a lens wider than a 24mm so the combination of 35mm, 28mm and 21mm make sense for me. They may not make sense for you. I don't know any way to find out other for sure than use focal lengths and see how they work for you.

 

--Gib

[hoppyman]

Don I don't think that it is a matter of marketing hype really. The Summicron is obviously a stop faster. It is an extremely compact package on your camera too and smaller than the Elmarit 24. Plus of course you don't need an external finder. Both lenses in any event are superb. In my experience the Summicron 28 ASPH. is not in any way inferior regarding sharpness, contrast, nor resolution at all.

Bollard photo - Geoff Hopkinson photos at pbase.com

Chain photo - Geoff Hopkinson photos at pbase.com

Estuary fishing photo - Geoff Hopkinson photos at pbase.com

 

All of the Leica 24's have excellent reputations naturally

I've only shot the Elmarit on my M8 and it produced stunning results. Being in Yoesmite at the time may have helped

The Elmar that I have now is wonderful on the M8 and M9

Tall Eucalypt with 24mm photo - Geoff Hopkinson photos at pbase.com

Beach scene photo - Geoff Hopkinson photos at pbase.com

Really it just depends on which focal length that you find most useful.

My view is that the 28 is more useful. I have a 24 as well (the Elmar) but use the 28 much more often.

 

I don't know how you ended up with the wrong outer cardboard cover but as long as the serial numbers match it doesn't matter of course. If you keep the 24 I suggest that you get the invoice corrected by your supplier so that you have the right purchase information for service and registration.

[lars_bergquist]

MTF graphs of both lenses are freely available. How anybody could imagine that the 24 has better resolution than the 28 is incomprehensible to me -- the Elmarit is clearly inferior in the corners, because (it seems) of curvature of field. This fact is notorious.

 

Two lenses in this focal length range that are clearly superior to the Elmarit (though not to the 28mm Summicron, which is one of the best damn lenses Leica ever produced) are the 24mm Elmar, and the Zeiss 25mm Biogon. But the difference is 3.8 as against 2.8.

 

I do own and use the Biogon. I have owned the Summicron because it made a good substitute for my favourite 35mm length on the M8. I sold it when I bought my M9, because I have never liked the focal length on a full frame camera, but optically, it is superb.

 

The old man from the Age of the 2.8cm Hektor (I'm just one year younger)

[hoppyman]

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Lars this is just my personal opinion but maybe a newer shooter like Don may not want to look at MTF graphs and technical analysis but does like to hear opinions and see practical examples. As we know there is a lot more to how choosing lenses than just their theoretical benchmark performance?

Just my thoughts. No offence meant.

[Ecaton]

Both are superb. My decision which one to keep would depend on my next longer (and on the M9 probably the most used) focal length choice. If it's 35mm, I'd go for the 24mm. A 50mm, I'd pair with the 28mm.

In the end, once bitten by the Leica bug, you might well end with both and have a 28-50-90 as well as a 24-35-75 lens lineup in your bags .

[rosuna]

MTF graphs of both lenses are freely available. How anybody could imagine that the 24 has better resolution than the 28 is incomprehensible to me -- the Elmarit is clearly inferior in the corners, because (it seems) of curvature of field. This fact is notorious.

 

I agree.

 

Don may buy the 24mm Elmar if he likes/needs that field of view.

[jplomley]

How anybody could imagine that the 24 has better resolution than the 28 is incomprehensible to me --

 

Do you own both lenses, and if so have you shot them side by side? I'm not imagining anything Lars, and if you check out my website, you will see I am extremely critical of my gear. If you have shot with both lenses, what was the nature of your subject material? Portraits, landscape? There is a reason Puts calls the 24 Elmarit Asph a masterpiece. It resolves high frequency detail much more effectively than the 28 Cron. There are others on this site that also have owned both lenses and I'll just wait for them to show up to support my claims. I don't buy lenses based on MTF graphs, I evaluate lenses in real world situations for the subject material I prefer to image. And I have also owned the Zeiss 25mm. Not a chance in hell it is superior to the 24mm. Wide open, the 24 smokes the 25mm. The Zeiss is also higher contrast overall, so hope you don't mind blown highlights. The colors from the Zeiss are OTT. Be prepared to have to de-saturate your reds. In terms of microcontrast, again, no contest, the 24 Elmarit is superior to the Zeiss.

[jplomley]

Is there a major difference between the two names or is it just marketing hype?

 

Naw, its just Leica nomenclature. Lenses at f/1.4 are referred to as Summilux, f/2 as Summicron, and f/2.8 as Elmarit.

 

Just checked out your website Don, and looks like we both enjoy using technical cameras for landscape. I suspect you are going to be as critical as I am when it comes to resolving the finest details mother nature presents us with. In that case, the 24 Elmarit Asph is without peer. Now if you were into the street genre, I would be more inclined to recommend the 28 Cron for its unique signature, sharp but smooth at the same time with a creamy bokeh wide open. You might find the 24 Elmarit Asph a bit too clinical for this genre.

[Iron Creek]

Thank you all for responding and your advice. I've been shooting with a 35, 50 90mm lens combination and recently ordered a 135 as well as a 28. There's not much difference between a 28 and 35 while the gap is more significant between a 24 and 35mm.

Bottom line for me is personal choice in focal lengths as shooting at f/2.8 versus f/2.0 isn't that big a deal in landscape photography. Seeing as how B&H is closed till Sunday I plan on going out today and test the 24mm focal length. If I like the IQ I'll keep it otherwise it'll be returned.

My primary landscape camera is a Cambo WRS1000/Phase One P45+ along with a trio of Schneider lenses in 35, 72 and 120mm.

I'm still very new to Leica so again many thanks to all who have responded.

Don

[batmobile]

pick based on focal length, speed need and the finder issue. Ignore everything else - its irrelevant.

 

Both are superb performers and may have some character differences, but these pale compared to not being happy with the focal length, external finder etc.

 

Who cares if the cron resolves one more gnat's whisker than the elmarit for one person and the converse for another? It makes no difference if you images aren't up to snuff.

[Iron Creek]

I just returned from a fast down and dirty test.

First I set the camera on my tripod (using the RRS base plate) then tested each lens beginning with the 24 then 35, 50 and finally the 90mm. I did this in order to better see the differences in focal length. Then I replaced the 90mm with the 24 and did a couple handheld test shots in the area starting from a distance of around 3' and beyond (the lens test had been all shot at infinity). I keep a color enhancing filter on all my lenses to include the medium format however I don't have a 55mm filter so the 24 was left bare.

What I saw - I'm pleased with the difference in focal lengths between the 35 and 24 and now believe that the 28 would have been too close. Of course I wouldn't have known this as a fact had this mistake not have happened. Simply put how could you not like a Leica lens?

I used the camera viewfinder and found that my composition was very close to what I thought it was. I'm back in the studio now and after loading the images in CS5 and looking at them all at actual pixel and beyond I'm very pleased with the sharpness of the lens to include the corners. I'm equally pleased with the color rendition. I also feel I can live with the 2.8 f/stop as after all I shoot mainly with a technical camera and medium format and those lenses are considered fast if they're f/4.5.

So here's the bottom line...

I'm keeping the mistake lens and will contact B&H in the morning to alert them of the shipping/packaging problem and to have my invoice corrected.

Sometimes mistakes are good!

[Xmas]

Hi Don

 

Lars is correct the 28mm MTF is better then the 24mm, but you probably would not have been able to detect the difference except on a brick wall shot off a tripod. Both are a lot better then the lenses HCB used...

 

Noel

[hoppyman]

I answerd Don's original post as to a new shooter however we can now see from some lovely work on his site that he is just new to owning Leica. Obviously Don is more than capable of choosing what works best for him and suits his situation and outfit.

 

In my opinion both lenses are capable of producing superb results whatever technical differences in rendition. Honestly, how impotant are the extreme corners in your composition for example, do you never crop just a teensy bit, are you always using the best support system? I like to look at MTF graphs and study the technical as well but in the end only the results count.

Subject, light (quality, contrast, exposure level) composition, technique, capture medium, artistic intent, characteristics of each for individual applications, output medium etc etc

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Through falling snow in subtle light M8

 

Clear bright sunshine and air M7 Provia

[lars_bergquist]

Lars this is just my personal opinion but maybe a newer shooter like Don may not want to look at MTF graphs and technical analysis but does like to hear opinions and see practical examples. As we know there is a lot more to how choosing lenses than just their theoretical benchmark performance?

Just my thoughts. No offence meant.

Geoff, I agree that there is more to a lens than MTF curves -- especially in the limited format in which they are published. They do also need some sense in the interpretation. But they are pretty basic; they are the most succinct resumes of the optical performance of a lens that is available. Also, they are quantitative. After the MTF-gazing, you can begin discussing distortion and bokeh and fingerprints and footprints or whatever, but without them, there will be nothing but idle handwaving (often accompnanied by equally idle hot air). And the handwaving will go on until the handwavers find something more interesting to wave their hands about. Some never do.

 

So if anyone is seriously interested, I say, go find the numbers, young man, and learn to read them.

 

The only non-numerical alternative to MTF graphs is a standardized, well thought out and comprehensive test procedure. The only fellow I know of who takes that kind of trouble is Sean Reid (long may he fly).

 

Regards, The incorrigible old man

 

P.S. Damn good pictures. T.I.O.M.

[hoppyman]

Lars no disputes from me on the science and validity of MTF diagrams.

I posted links and pictures to try to illustrate my opinions. Glad you liked the shots. The softer one (through falling snow) is the Elmarit 24 of course and the other is the Summicron. Both essentially uncropped. I figure that they can both do sharp or soft or high or low contrast or bo-keh anything over a very wide range of possibilities. Not to mention easily outperform my technique unless I have everything nailed down on a great tripod.

 

I actually really like the characteristic vignetting that the Summicron can produce. Funny thing is that now my M9 corrects it out completely in DNG.

 

I have no clue what T.I.O.M means in this context.

Googling gave me

TIOM, Try-it-On-Monday. TIOM, Trough-wafer connection for Integrated Optic devices for improved assembly and packaging to manufacture ...

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Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[01af]

I actually really like the characteristic vignetting that the Summicron can produce. Funny thing is that now my M9 corrects it out completely in DNG.

... unless the lens recognition is switched off.

[hoppyman]

Yes, that is an option I have. I shall be sure to compare when next I shoot some big blue skies.