JCT Posted January 4, 2007 Share #1 Posted January 4, 2007 Advertisement (gone after registration) Hi all, I'm trying to come up with a strategy for starting with Leica that will not annoy my very patient husband too much. I feel like I am part of an interesting "trend" -- I grew up shooting film (still have my late father's Zeiss Contaflex I learned on), have been an avid user of DSLRs (presently a D2x) and for some reason I tried fiddling with medium format and got re-hooked on film! Spent a recent weekend teaching my 16-yr-old how to develop and print B&W-- wonderful memories of my own teenage years in the darkroom with my dad. I decided to try a rangefinder and have spent the last month shooting with an old Kodak Retina IIc -- I am still startled by the excellent quality of these mechanical cameras. Much to my husband's horror, I am now seriously considering the "pinnacle" of the 35mm mechanical camera -- a Leica. What I "want" is an MP + 50mm ASPH, not possible at the present -- but certainly the future (with a little moonlighting). I want to keep the price as low as possible for my first foray into Leica, but still get a good experience. After reading a ton of info and perusing the forums, I am leaning towards finding an M4 (either recently CLA'd or at a good enough price that I can send it to DAG) and *maybe* trying a good 50mm Voightlander lens to start. None of my other film cameras (a Rolleiflex 3.5E, Hasselblad 503cw or the Retina IIc) have meters, so I am used to carrying my little Digisix everywhere-- so no meter is required. Part of my quandry is that it seems that prices for good user M4s and "classic" M6s nearly overlap-- and I would love to put my starter Leica setup together for less than $1500. Any and all suggestions would be appreciated and Happy New Year ! regards, JT Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted January 4, 2007 Posted January 4, 2007 Hi JCT, Take a look here Starting with an M4?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
enboe Posted January 4, 2007 Share #2 Posted January 4, 2007 Many consider the M4 as the height of vintage Leica M craftsmanship. The only caveat is to make sure you budget enough for a good Clean, Lubricate and Adjust, especially if the camera has been sitting around for decades. Try to give consideration to acquiring the 50mm summicron if the budget will stretch. Nobody seems to regret getting a summicron. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
spydrxx Posted January 4, 2007 Share #3 Posted January 4, 2007 Hi - I've been using an M4 for almost 40 years now, and like you have used lots of other cameras over the years. About 4 years ago I bought a M6 to supplement the M4. Both are great bodies...but I've found that I keep reaching for the M4 rather than the M6 when I have a project in mind...perhaps it's the unconscious confidence I have in the older camera. I'll reiterate that if you do decide on an older camera you really do need to factor in the cost of a cla by a master craftsperson. Although MY preference is clear, I would recommend the M6 for somebody buying into the system. The current price on an M4 relative to a newer M6 IMHO makes the latter a better economic deal and you're less likely to have near term repair problems. Whatever you decide...welcome to the club. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
leicapfile Posted January 4, 2007 Share #4 Posted January 4, 2007 Jil, I'd opt for an M2 as opposed to a M4, albeit one that has some history as having regular CLAs over the years. The primary advantage is one of price at probably around $400 or so. That will allow additional monies for the lens, which is really the most important thing anyway. The disadvatage is the faster rewind of the M4. Construction wise they are equal, particularly if the M2 is one of the later ones. In fact I'd give the nod to the M2. After all, plastic was introduced to the Leica with the M4. There are those who feel the M3 was the best, but I suspect at some point you'll want to get into wide angle lenses and you must have aux finders for that. $1,500 or so is not a bad point to start, and if you look carefully you shouldn't have a problem. Best, Jerry Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
abrewer Posted January 4, 2007 Share #5 Posted January 4, 2007 Hi Jill. Welcome to the Forum! Hard to quarrel with either choice of camera you've mentioned, given that you're going to use your own meter and have film experience. I think you will find a Leica lens on the body will provide the most rewarding experience, however. Unfortunately we have no place on the LUF to buy/sell per request of Leica. As an aid in your search I've assembled this list to help establish what the market is doing right now: Rangefinderforum.com FredMiranda.com Photo.net Photogon.com All of these sites carry classifieds and you may be reasonably sure of a smooth transaction at a fair price. Good luck, and post pictures when you can! Thanks. Allan Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dfbldwn Posted January 4, 2007 Share #6 Posted January 4, 2007 Please look through the viewfinder before you make any purchase. I do not have a comprehensive experience, but, consistently, for the camera bodies I have handled, the older an M body, the dimmer the viewfinder. This makes a big difference when focusing in low light situations. My M3 did not compare to my M6 in contrast and was barely usable in low light. My M6, while still functional for several more years, is not quite as good in contrast or brightness as my M7, despite the (early-production) M7's dust leak. You can save yourself some money on your initial purchase by gaining experience with the varying dimness of each viewfinder and deciding which one you consider still quite useable, even if its not the "very best". p.s. Plastic parts on my +20 year-old M6 "classic" have held up as well as its metal parts. Good Luck, David Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gberger Posted January 4, 2007 Share #7 Posted January 4, 2007 Advertisement (gone after registration) JT - At the expense of being considered a male chauvinist, I'd recommend the M6 with a Leica summicron. We have an M4 and an M7, and we had one of the first M6 "classics" (that now resides with a friend). My wife used the M4, and a meter, from late 1968 until we purchased the M6. Shortly thereafter, she took possession of the M6, stating that the internal reflective meter gave her more freedom in shooting. Since we bought the M7, it has been hers - - and I'm still using the M4 with a Sekonic 308. Now - - if I can just wean her back to the M4 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
thomasw_ Posted January 4, 2007 Share #8 Posted January 4, 2007 i am not sure what sort of shooting you wish to perform with a leica, but any M will likely fulfill your needs especially if you wish to do only available-light shooting and you will carry a separate light meter. though i love my m5, i do not think it is the best camera for someone with smaller hands. but i would like to put forward the idea of a barnack leica; they are little jewels of precision and you can get very fine results. btw, i noticed on ffordes site a beautiful set up: a IIIc and 50mm elmar for 299 pounds -- about 590US -- and they will back up what they sell. https://secure.ffordes.com/index.htm surely that price is attractive? and don't worry about loading it, if i can master it anyone can but if you wish to spend the big moonlighting dollars, click over to the Ms and buy yourself that titanium m7 i think those are even more beautiful than the mps....but not the barnacks! good cheer and happy decision making, Thomas Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JCT Posted January 5, 2007 Author Share #9 Posted January 5, 2007 Serious food for thought in this thread! Many thanks! I have definitely vacillated between these options for awhile, but after reading through all of the thoughtful comments I think I am leaning back towards the classic M6 option as my "starter". The prices are definitely dropping a bit and picking up 20 years on the M4 with such a small difference in price between them does make sense. The M4 is definitely still commanding quite a premium. Interesting coincidence, I was at a neighbor's house at New Year's and we were talking about cameras (she had a new digital) -- all of a sudden she said, "you know I still have a film camera!" (Like it was some sort of religious relic). I expressed interest and she pulled out a Leica IIIc -- I almost fell over! Belonged to her great-uncle. And George, hah, no chauvinism detected on *my* meter . As a matter of fact-- your comments are well-taken for a related reason. I would like to be able to hand the Leica off to my husband or daughter (son hasn't caught the photography bug...yet), but I am the one that has almost infinite patience, trying to get either of them to use a handheld meter may be asking for too much. Well, my daughter might be willing... but my husband? No chance. The comment about the viewfinder is very well-taken, this is actually one of my major concerns about buying sight-unseen. The first time I ever handled a Leica Rangefinder was at PhotoVillage in NYC last month, Rich took the time to show me the differences, which, as David pointed out, were substantial. Unfortunately (for my sobbing wallet) my favorite was the MP. I found the viewfinder on the M6 nice and bright--but a bit busy. I seem to recall that DAG can remove some of the framelines? Of course, almost anything will beat my uh, dingy viewfinder on the Retina. And OK, so much for my very brief foray into considering "lesser" glass, given that I'm a complete fanatic when it comes to my Nikon and Hasselblad lenses, I don't know what I was thinking . I like the idea of the 50mm Summicron, but it looks like figuring out which version to go with is a project in itself--- more reading for me. So, now armed with Allan's great sites I will start my search for a good user M6 and a 50mm Summicron -- I know my first Leica is out there somewhere! I'll be hanging around for the duration though--thanks a million for the warm (and helpful) welcome! Jil Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
abrewer Posted January 5, 2007 Share #10 Posted January 5, 2007 Jill, Check your PM's. Thanks. Allan Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gberger Posted January 5, 2007 Share #11 Posted January 5, 2007 JT - I sent our M6 to DAG several years ago for a CLA. At my request, he removed the 28, 75 and 135 framelines - - leaving the 35, 50 and 90. It cost a few bucks, but, IMO, it was worth it to remove the extra clutter. I passed off our M6 to a very good friend, who uses 35, 50 and 24mm lenses. He's pleased with the lack of clutter in the viewfinder. Of course, he needs an auxulary viewfinder for the 24mm. Cheers - - and The Photo Village is an honest and top flight dealer. That's where we got our M7. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dfbldwn Posted January 5, 2007 Share #12 Posted January 5, 2007 Jill, Your "very brief foray into considering 'lesser' glass" comment prompts my alternative approach to lens selection. The following combinations (lens & aperture) consistently take my breath away: f/8: 50mm (collapsible) Elmarit f/4: 135mm (not the ASPH, but the previous version) f/2.8: 90mm APO-ASPH f/2.0: 75mm APO-ASPH, although, in some circumstances, the standard 50mm Summicron fights well above its weight class at f/2.0 The two 50mm lenses and the 135mm lens can be acquired used for prices which are intensely reasonable, given the image quality they produce. - David Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
colorflow Posted January 6, 2007 Share #13 Posted January 6, 2007 I like to through in my two cents worth. My M3 viewfinder is every bit as bright as my M6 and M8 for that matter. So I think it depends on the condition of the M3. For someone who does not need a built-in light meter, I would strongly recommend the M3. The feel of it's shutter release alone is worth the $1000 or so for a good one on eBay. This would leave $500 for a 50mm Summicron, or a 35mm for a few more bucks. The shutter release of the M6 is already a little mushy comparatively due to the exposure reading detent, while the M8 sounds and feels like a cheap P&S. I also love my 3F RD/ST and 3G, both have the same feel of mechanical perfection of the M3. These are also worth considering and they would be way below the $1500 budget. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stunsworth Posted January 6, 2007 Share #14 Posted January 6, 2007 . This would leave $500 for a 50mm Summicron, or a 35mm for a few more bucks. Much as I like my M3, it isn't the perfect camera for a 35mm lens as the only one that will have the correct frame lines is one with the built in 'bug eyes'. The M3 has a smoother feel than my M6, but to be honest I find the M6 a much better camera to use in practice. Just my opinion. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
colorflow Posted January 6, 2007 Share #15 Posted January 6, 2007 Much as I like my M3, it isn't the perfect camera for a 35mm lens as the only one that will have the correct frame lines is one with the built in 'bug eyes'. The M3 has a smoother feel than my M6, but to be honest I find the M6 a much better camera to use in practice. Just my opinion. Steve, I agree with you completely from the practicality stand point. I mostly take the M6 on occasions when I know I need to take a lot of photos, and take the M3 when I want to enjoy the experience of taking photos. By the way, seems to me the full view of the M3 (including outside of the 50mm frameline) is almost that of the 35mm lens. Alan Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andybarton Posted January 6, 2007 Share #16 Posted January 6, 2007 I started into Leica with an M2 and 50 Summicron about 4 years ago and haven't looked back... neither has my bank manager Just be aware that, if you wear glasses, depending on the magnification of the viewfinder, seeing wide framelines can be a right royal pain. 35 on an M2, with the owner wearing glasses for example, requires a lot of "looking round the viewfinder". If you can, try, before you buy, with the lens/s that you will be tempted by (either now or in the future). Be sure to come back straight away and tell us what you have bought and share your shots with us! Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JCT Posted January 7, 2007 Author Share #17 Posted January 7, 2007 I started into Leica with an M2 and 50 Summicron about 4 years ago and haven't looked back... neither has my bank manager This, of course, is exactly what has my husband so worried . When I originally started my information-gathering I had thought I would end up with an M3, but I must admit that even with a pretty good head for technical issues the near-endless discussions re SS vs DS and post 919,000 serial numbers, etc., gave me a bit of a headache. I think I may end up with one of the older M versions as a second body eventually -- something I have noticed as I have aged is that I have developed a heightened appreciation for the asthetics of the gear I use -- emphasis on "use" however, because I don't have any interest in collecting for the sake of having such items-- they have to function as well. And I think that the combination of a well-maintained M2,M3,M4 with a chrome lens is simply beautiful. Now if I could only get my better half more on-board for this purchase... JT Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
thomasw_ Posted January 7, 2007 Share #18 Posted January 7, 2007 Jill, i saw this m4 + 50mm summicron for sale: Leica and Rangefinders Forum: FS: Leica M4 Body + 50mm f2.0 Rigid Summicron; Exc++; $1,200 the seller is a honest chap; good luck. Yet, I still think you should go for a barnack with an 50mm elmar lens...there is true jewel-like precision and beauty in the gear. Just ask anyone who uses one:) Good cheer, thomas ps, by going for the barnack, you would be staying below the budget you and your husband have agreed? on. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
thrid Posted January 7, 2007 Share #19 Posted January 7, 2007 As has been mentioned, many people consider the M4 the apex of classic M cameras. I have two of them and they are my favorite. May I also suggest a nice M2, which can run considerably less $$$? The M2 doesn't have the fast loading system of the M4 (it uses a spool like the M3 or LTM cameras), but other than that this is a killer camera. My M2 is a joy to shoot. it's smooth as silk and the viewfinder is perfect. Take a look at Welcome to CollectibleCameras.com Quite often they have M bodies for sale that have been overhauled by DAG. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ecaton Posted January 7, 2007 Share #20 Posted January 7, 2007 I plan to buy a Leica rangefinder and thought of a M4 or M6 as ideal "entry level" investments (with a 35 or 50mm lens). However, do not intend to process films myself and would also digitalise pictures via scanner for storage, processing and printing. Considering this, would buying a film M still make sense or would you rather recommend moving directly to the M8 (my p&sh and SLR are digital). My concern is that external film processing and scanning results in compromises on picture quality, something I definitely want to avoid. Thanks in advance for any advice. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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