Please advise on my 90mm Summicron woes

[ianspector]

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Some really good advice. I know I really ought to send my M9 and all my glass to Solms and have them sort it all out but it would break my heart to have my Noct no longer as good. It works so well for me but Steve Huff sold this copy as it did not deliver on his M9.

 

I think that I will send it back to Solms one more time, try and send them some examples and then sell it when it comes back to someone local who can try before they buy.

 

I am so grateful for all your help. I just want to be out shooting not entering an eternal game of lenticular tennis with a very expensive ball.

 

Thank you all for taking the time to respond and also let me know of similar experience.

 

Ian

[garygsandhu]

My 90 AA focuses perfectly at all distances on my M8 but I use a 1.25 magnifier

[Paul Hart]

I don't know about other people's experiences, but in my search for a M90mm, I bought 3 different 90AAs and none of them focused properly at portrait distances. I tried 2 different 90/2.5s, one new, one used ... and neither focused properly at all distances. The M9s I use properly focuses all my other lenses ... including a 50/0.95 and 75 LUX.

 

One fairly knowledgable seller told me that DAG told him the 90AA can be calibrated to focus wide open at close distances, or mid-distances, but not both. This seems to match your recent recalibration experience where Leica seems to have calibrated for closer distances.

 

I finally gave up my search (what a huge PITA buying, testing, and returning lenses).

 

I now have a $800. later model M90/2.8 that focuses perfectly at all distances, is sharp as a tack, has that 3D look, and produces beautiful Bokeh.

 

Sometimes Newer isn't the best path to Better : -)

 

This fits my experience. I tried a 90AA in store alongside an Elmarit-M and at medium distances the E-M was visibly sharper on my M9, so that got the vote. Haven't been disappointed with it since.

[XK50]

For what it's worth, I too had 90mm woes and found the solution to be far simpler.

 

First, I fitted the outrageously expensive +1 dioptre correction (actually, it was the second thing I did, as the x1.25 magnifier didn't help).

 

With the dioptre correction fitted, suddenly I could hit perfect focus, sufficient to see my real problem was ... tarrah ... camera shake!

 

The OOF hid the shake and their combination caused me to doubt my camera/lens' set up

 

Best wishes,

 

John

[ianspector]

For what it's worth, I too had 90mm woes and found the solution to be far simpler.

 

First, I fitted the outrageously expensive +1 dioptre correction (actually, it was the second thing I did, as the x1.25 magnifier didn't help).

 

With the dioptre correction fitted, suddenly I could hit perfect focus, sufficient to see my real problem was ... tarrah ... camera shake!

 

The OOF hid the shake and their combination caused me to doubt my camera/lens' set up

 

Best wishes,

 

John

 

I started with the view that it must be user error. Thus I tried it on a tripod with a target at different distances. Also I can get sharp shots by giving the focus ring a nudge anti-clockwise from the sharpest focus point. I waited for months for my 1.4 magnifier before giving up.

 

You are absolutely right to bring up camera shake as I always start from the assumption that the problem is not the equipment. Usually serves me well as a rule.

 

Thanks again,

 

Ian

[ianspector]

Following on from the advice I had my Leica dealer send the lens back to Solms with examples of the problem and a detailed narrative. As my 50mm Summicron settled back into the mount I was happy to accept personal responsibility for any blurred images from the rest of my equipment.

 

Thank you so much for your generous assistance.

 

Ian

[DFV]

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Here are my results regarding my Summicron 90. As far as I can see it focuses perfectly at 1, 2 and 15 meters.

 

All the tests are hand held (too lazy to take out the tripod again today...).

 

1 meter:

 

 

2 meters:

 

 

15 meters (magnified and cropped):

 

 

The focus looks spot on to me...

[ianspector]

That looks perfect, let me know how you want to arrange the swap.

 

Thank you so much for testing, in my frustration I had forgotten how well it renders.

 

Yours,

 

Ian

[DFV]

That looks perfect, let me know how you want to arrange the swap.

 

Thank you so much for testing, in my frustration I had forgotten how well it renders.

 

Yours,

 

Ian

 

Thanks! But from the previous posts it almost looks that mine is an accident. So, I think I will hold onto it for now.

[gwelland]

Don t be so sure it not the body..it is possible for other lenses to appear to focus perfectly and still have the body being the right place to calibrate. If a lens focuses to a decent std at close distances and appears off at distance ..its almost always the body.

 

I had the same discussion with DAG...its not impossible its just darn difficult . The most difficult lens DAG calibrated for me was the 135APO ..at over 20ft ..its has such a micro throw that its just hard to focus. I was shooting baseball at about 150ft and tennis at 100ft...a good test . Three tries to get it and we had to match the body for the final test. You have to stack the magnifiers 1.4x and 1.25X to do a test accurately.

 

Calibration is a range not an absolute position and for precision you have to fit the lenses to the body. Believe me I fought this for 18 months . Send your body and the lens to DAG and then retest everything .

 

This is my experience also. When I had my 135 APO-Telyt DAG's recommendation was that the only way that he could calibrate the lens was if he had the body to match it to. It would be too much of a crap shoot given the tight tolerances required to make it work well unless you had a perfect match to Leica's "reference" body.

 

I went through the 90AA love/hate and quickly ended up reverting to my 90/2.8 Elmarit-M. I shoot more travel/landscapes than portraits and so don't miss the wider aperture.

 

I know I've said it many times here before but I can't stress how much of a benefit it is getting your outfit calibrated together. DAG did it for me and it has worked out wonderfully. I'm kind of dreading getting my new 35/1.4 or another M9 at the moment because of it ... but I'd send the lens & body off again if need be.

[meino]

This sounds all to familiar for me, 5 year ago I upgrade from a version 1 90mm summicron to the 90mm APO. Sometimes I could see the sharpness, but very often I had a huge backfocus problem, the lens has been send to Solms for adjustment, but it staid a problem to focus it properly, This was on an M6. When I had the M9, to my surprise, the initial focusing was much better, even without the use of a magnifier. However lately I started to observe the same back focusing problems again that I experienced with the M6. But I realizewd something. I have always using my left eye for focusing and composing, but when I started using the M9, I often tried to use my rigth eye (Due to the thickness of the LCD screen and to prevent smudges), but lately I have been lazy and started to use my left eye again. I did some tests and indeed using my right eye, most of the pictures are correctly focused, while using my left eye, many of them have a backfocus. So it looks to me that the position of the eye pupil relative to the exit pupil of the finder has influence on the exact way the RF focuses. I'm now trying hard to change my habit of using the left eye, to the use of the right eye.

 

regards

Meino de Graaf

[Leicakillen]

Hi,

I have heard a lot of good opinions of DAG and focus adjustments. However he is based in US - is there a good alternative in Europe (apart from Solm)?

 

Thanks

/Anders

[DFV]

This sounds all to familiar for me, 5 year ago I upgrade from a version 1 90mm summicron to the 90mm APO. Sometimes I could see the sharpness, but very often I had a huge backfocus problem, the lens has been send to Solms for adjustment, but it staid a problem to focus it properly, This was on an M6. When I had the M9, to my surprise, the initial focusing was much better, even without the use of a magnifier. However lately I started to observe the same back focusing problems again that I experienced with the M6. But I realizewd something. I have always using my left eye for focusing and composing, but when I started using the M9, I often tried to use my rigth eye (Due to the thickness of the LCD screen and to prevent smudges), but lately I have been lazy and started to use my left eye again. I did some tests and indeed using my right eye, most of the pictures are correctly focused, while using my left eye, many of them have a backfocus. So it looks to me that the position of the eye pupil relative to the exit pupil of the finder has influence on the exact way the RF focuses. I'm now trying hard to change my habit of using the left eye, to the use of the right eye.

 

regards

Meino de Graaf

 

You could have a point here. I never had any issues focusing ever. I am also a watchmaker in my free time so I am used to work with very small details and tolerances.

[jaapv]

Hi,

I have heard a lot of good opinions of DAG and focus adjustments. However he is based in US - is there a good alternative in Europe (apart from Solm)?

 

Thanks

/Anders

index.html =Will van Manen

[ianspector]

I think that this falls into the category of "don't ask the question if you could be embarrassed by the answer". What seems to be emerging is that the 90 APO Cron is very sensitive to set up, and perhaps the lens is unusually sensitive to the camera setting itself. In my personal photographic world I adore shooting with my M bodies, I love the tiny lenses and other than this lens I am quite giddy with the results. I just like to be out shooting, and I also enjoy post work in CS5. I have so little interest in lens testing and repeated attempts to get something adjusted to perfection. If the solution was to send all my glass and my M9 and MP to Solms for adjustment together (under passport, everything is less than a year old except the Noct) I would resent the months without it all and I would be fearful that on its return it would not be good enough or one of the other lenses would no longer deliver for me. I would sooner sacrifice the 90 than lose faith in Leica altogether. This is galling as the example above shows what a wonderful lens the 90 is when working right.

 

Has anyone sent all their equipment in to Solms for adjustment and been unhappy with the result; or do they nail it every time in that situation. If I was pretty certain that everything would be perfect at the other end I may be tempted.

 

Thanks again,

 

Ian

[Guest]

Similar results here to the ones shown by DFV.

Easier and faster to obtain with the M6TTL 0.85 and more so with the 1.4 magnifier on and of cause correction.

Lens, RF; eye, hands: they do their best in Solms.

 

What's the point in a thread with an endless number of: "I can take care of that problem, in fact it's a challenge!" from every Cron90A user reading this?

 

It's not very different from the way of using the 135 Apo-Telyt. Chris Tribble showed marvelous indoors pictures, which might have been a safer bet with the 90CronA. It's like a musical instrument, doesn't come overnight. Didn't show the out of focus ones from many years ago but this beauties. It was a pleasure and a very motivating thread.

 

waiting for a Black chrome M9 0.85 to be anounced at the fotokina .

Customers overall not getting any younger, it might help carry on quarterly M9 results past Christmas 2010.

[Guest]

Most people don't consider Leica lenses longer than 50mm, which makes a lot of sense, if only for the tab. And 35mm probably outsold 50mm this decade.

 

HCB's "Vive la France" is full with 90mm pictures. Bought 2 copies on ebay and had them sent to friends in France, because shipping here to Germany would have been more than the price of each book, which is a shame.

 

IMO composing with a 28mm on FF is more difficult than focussing a 90Cron, but this is a personal point of view.

 

Cheers!

[menos I M6]

If people end often in having focus issues with the 90 Cron or 135 APO Telyt, there have to be revisited three very important points:

 

Is the lens matched to the camera?

Is the users eye sight adequate to focussing such critical lenses?

Is the user fit/ relaxed/ in condition, to be able to focus such critical lenses?

 

I used a 90 2.8 Elmarit-M, which by luck was spot on on my cameras - I found it too slow for some light and started to look for something faster.

I tried maybe a dozen different 90 f2 lenses AA and non AA, until I found one sample, that matched my reference camera spot on. From the very first shots with this lens, I found it to be very easy and consistent to focus at ranges of 2m to ∞, which is, where I use a 90mm.

 

Prior to a trip, I planned for a few months I lost a few auctions on a 135 APO, as I looked for something longer, to be able, to leave the DSLR at home for telephoto shots. I then bought a new 135 APO 1 week before the trip in a hurry, after having tested and tried the lens for half an hour in and outside the shop on my reference body.

I got very lucky and found this seldom in stock lens, to be sufficiently fitting to the body and bought it.

Back at home, I set the RF of the M8.2 perfectly, to have both lenses spot on at 2m - ∞, as that was the distance, I planned to use them at Le Mans - the 135 for tele and the 90 Cron for the night.

 

Back from the trip, I had oof shots, that were totally off, as I screwed up, but I had very little shots, I had slightly off due to focussing difficulties, but more due to subject movement and my inability, to continuously follow focus on a fast moving subject. I shot Le Mans with both lenses wide open, at most 1 stop down during the daytime (used a 4 stop ND filter on the APO and the Cron only in the dark). Interestingly, the yield on good in focus shots was not lower as with the Nikon D3 and tele the year before. With these manual focus lenses you really can plant your focus point, where you want it and stick to it, regardless of fences, people in front of the lens and alike. More difficult of course are situations, where you have to change focus distance quickly, where cameras as the D3 excel.

 

A very, very important point in focussing fast / long lenses wide open is point 3 above - the fitness of the photographer.

I have days, when I am exhausted/ tired from work with sour eyes and bad mood - I wouldn't dare, to touch a 90Cron or 135 APO on such days!

I did a few times in the "must take photographs mood" but never did I come back with keepers, if not feeling good. This of course goes hand in hand with your eye sight issues being solved by diopters or glasses of course.

 

Here are a few samples from the Telyt and the Cron:

 

135 APO Telyt wide open with 4 stop ND

 

135 APO Telyt with 4 stop ND, stopped down 1/2 or 1 stop, as I moved closer to the track for enough dof for the race car

 

135 APO Telyt wide open as the night quickly settles in

I love these B&W ND's and will buy a set for my fast lenses ;-)

 

90 Cron wide open

[ianspector]

Thank you for the remarkable 90 and 135 images. Even the thought of a shooting challenge like that has me reaching for my Nikon D3 and 600mm VR f/4.

 

My needs are much more modest; I would be happy if my 90 Cron portraits had a few eyes in focus and not every nose tip. My first approach is to assume that I as the user am the problem. But the only way I can get sharp results are to focus normally then back the focues anticlockwise a smidge so that the image in the rangefinder is now out of focus. That gives me consistent sharp images. Moreover, setting the lens to the infinity stop should render the distant horizon in focus but it does not. Focusing normally never ever gives me an in focus image. I do find the focus a bit sticky so that does not help, and of course the 50mm Noct f/1 has a really long focus throw that really helps me focus accurately. Probably several factors are conspiring against me.

 

Thanks for the memorable shots.

 

Ian

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Hallo,

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[DFV]

Menos, As you well explain two points with long lenses on the M system;

 

1.- You have to make sure you concentrate on the focusing more than on the wider focals.

 

2.- The technique to shoot fast moving objects like motor sports or any other sports is to lock your focus right where you want to take the shot and wait for the subject to appear right where you want it. The M viewfinder here has an advantage over SLRs since you are able to see your subject without having to take your sight out of the viewfinder. Once your subject enters your frame just shoot. With this technique it is all about letting the subject come to you instead of you chasing the subject.

 

I have had fantastic results with sports and athletics (all on Velvia...). Perhaps I would have had more shots with a SLR but back then film was not cheep and rolls could not be formatted and reused like an SD card. Today DSLRs have the upper hand in this, no question about it, but if you use your M correctly you will be able to get astonishing results.