What is this? And is this real?

[dkCambridgeshire]

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assuming the iiic pictured above is a genuine item- is anyone willing to hazard a guess as to its value?

 

I am fairly sure it is genuine- and interestingly enough I notice that the serial number is just 30 odd cameras before the iiic pictured on Mr Gandy's cameraquest site. Leica German Luftwaffe

 

Same production run?

 

Neither SN 385733, or SN 385775 appear in Cane's list. The SN 338521 on the Cameraquest site does appear in Cane's list. Cane's list and Lager's Wehrmacht book both show just 17 Leica IIIC cameras delivered to the Luftwaffe in 1942 with SNs commencing 385xxx.

 

However, because the SNs do not appear on Cane's list this does not mean that the cameras are definitely not genuine Luftwaffe deliveries ... but they cannot be authenticated as actual Luftwaffe deliveries unless the SNs do appear on Cane's list. There will always be a doubt about cameras not on Cane's list.

 

In UK, authenticated WW2 Luftwaffe Leica camera bodies command prices of £1000 to £2000 and £1500 upwards when complete with an authenticated lens. They can also 'stick' unsold in dealers' stocks for months ... maybe because potential buyers are unsure of provenance and because many fakes have been produced. Making a fake ie using a SN not on Cane's list is relatively easy - all that is required is a means to engrave the top plate.

 

dunk

[jaques]

I wrote to Leica and they wrote back saying in their opinion, based on the image and description I sent, that the camera was indeed an original Luftwaffen issue camera. However they stated that they do not have accurate records from that period and could not offer any info on the serial number at this time. My personal belief is that the camera is genuine.

 

As to engraving the camera: whilst anyone with the right equipment could do this- I would have imagined to do a very good, convincing job would be quite difficult? The engraving on all the Russian fakes I have seen is quite obviously fake- it is well done- but clearly not up to the standards of genuine Leica engraving. But they are a much cheaper item.

 

I wonder about the lists that are said to exist- where do they come from if even Leica isn't sure of serial numbers from the period? I guess they could come from Luftwaffen records... The German love of record keeping is welll established...

Edited July 22, 2010 by jaques

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[dkCambridgeshire]

I wrote to Leica and they wrote back saying in their opinion, based on the image and description I sent, that the camera was indeed an original Luftwaffen issue camera. However they stated that they do not have accurate records from that period and could not offer any info on the serial number at this time. My personal belief is that the camera is genuine.

 

As to engraving the camera: whilst anyone with the right equipment could do this- I would have imagined to do a very good, convincing job would be quite difficult? The engraving on all the Russian fakes I have seen is quite obviously fake- it is well done- but clearly not up to the standards of genuine Leica engraving. But they are a much cheaper item.

 

I wonder about the lists that are said to exist- where do they come from if even Leica isn't sure of serial numbers from the period? I guess they could come from Luftwaffen records... The German love of record keeping is welll established...

 

You say, 'My personal belief is that the camera is genuine' ... but unless you have definite proof of provenance it's impossible to say whether the camera is genuine. I have heard about ex-Leica engraving machines being used by unscrupulous 'techicians'. If you read the Lager and Cane books you'll see that the SN is outside the known range of cameras delivered . Leica isn't sure because nobody there took the trouble to check all their delivery records ... but Cane did ... and he spent 15 weeks over a period of 4 years examining the Leica delivery record archives in order to compile his list of "Screw -mount cameras with Military Engravings"

 

These are Cane's and Lager's books together with my own Luftwaffe camera

 

 

 

 

 

I have seen a video on Youtube which shows Leitz factory production during the 1930s including the engraving machine ... it is a pantograph type machine and would not take much skill to use ... the operator has to follow the outline of large characters which then engrave the small characters on the camera. A deceased Nottingham UK used camera dealer told me he had seen one of these ex Leica engraving machines situated in a technician's workshop in the UK .. but not in Nottingham.

 

dunk

Edited July 22, 2010 by dkpeterborough

[dkCambridgeshire]

Here's the video link to the Leitz 1930s factory production ... the engraving machine is 2 minutes from the start ...

 

dunk

[sabears]

Jaques, as a Leica researcher expecially of wartime items I confirm that the camera is genuine.

 

If you want to know more send an email to me.

 

There are a lot of things lacking in the two books,the author were conservative regarding these, they usually give numbers of batches that were engraved by Leica or with direct clear delivery,leaving the space for further research.

 

They also know the existance of the batch of your camera.

 

Regarding the two books, obvious the original project is not finished, it would be useful an update in future, I hope by J.Lager himself .

 

Regards.

[jaques]

Thanks for all the replies everyone.

 

Sabears: I am glad you have confidence in the camera authenticity. I will post more information and images of it when I have it in my hands.

 

dkpeterborough: When I said I believed that the camera was authentic- it was only an opinion. I based it on the limited research I have done- and also on the collection that the camera came from. The previous owner was a very serious camera collector and all of the items in the auction were honestly described. It seems clear that he was confident of its authenticity.

 

BTW- thanks for posting that link to the Leitz film- it was very interesting to watch. I was trying to imagine how the engraving was done - and I kind of guessed that it would be how it actually is- so when you posted the video it was great to see. The machine was smaller than I imagined though- and seemed to get the job done very fast.

[dkCambridgeshire]

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I hope the camera is proved to be authentic. However, it is not enough to think or suspect that it might be ... there have to be hard proofs and so far nothing concrete has been published to prove the authenticity beyond reasonable doubt. If you access a copy of Cane's book and read Lars Netopil's forward, you will discover how meticulous Cane was in his research and also how, "well executed fakes" were identified. A skilled forger with access to an engraving machine could easily engrave military markings on a 1940s Leica camera body.

 

There are 7 blank pages in Cane's book for 'Notes'; there are 4 blank pages in Lager's book for 'Reader's Notes and Comments'. If anyone has done more research and documented same then maybe they should consider publication in the form of addenda for the benefit of all interested collectors and historians.

 

dunk

Edited July 23, 2010 by dkpeterborough

[jaapv]

You say, 'My personal belief is that the camera is genuine' ... but unless you have definite proof of provenance it's impossible to say whether the camera is genuine. I have heard about ex-Leica engraving machines being used by unscrupulous 'techicians'. If you read the Lager and Cane books you'll see that the SN is outside the known range of cameras delivered . Leica isn't sure because nobody there took the trouble to check all their delivery records ... but Cane did ... and he spent 15 weeks over a period of 4 years examining the Leica delivery record archives in order to compile his list of "Screw -mount cameras with Military Engravings"

 

These are Cane's and Lager's books together with my own Luftwaffe camera

 

 

 

 

 

I have seen a video on Youtube which shows Leitz factory production during the 1930s including the engraving machine ... it is a pantograph type machine and would not take much skill to use ... the operator has to follow the outline of large characters which then engrave the small characters on the camera. A deceased Nottingham UK used camera dealer told me he had seen one of these ex Leica engraving machines situated in a technician's workshop in the UK .. but not in Nottingham.

 

dunk

Note that the spacing is different on the Fl. number of the OP and this one. And the letter "N".

[dkCambridgeshire]

Note that the spacing is different on the Fl. number of the OP and this one. And the letter "N".

 

Lager's and Cane's books each show illustrations with both types of 'N' and in Lager's book the illustrations also show different spacings.

 

The Lager book's front cover illustration shows a closely spaced FL number with the short \ in the N; page 15 shows 6 illustrations all with the short \ ... 5 have close spacing, 1 has wider spacing. Page 23 shows 5 FL number illustrations all with wide spacing and all with long \ in the 'N'

 

Thus seems variations are normal and are not indicative of 'foul play' .

 

diunk

[jaapv]

No problem - just pointing it out for those better versed than me.

[sabears]

The camera of diunk is absolutely genuine.

 

Leica used a number of different fonts, there were some variations in these years.

 

regards.