Would you pay for a FW update with some added Features?

[redbaron]

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I think it's time for a car analogy.

 

I recently spent $35k on a new Subaru. Not much, you say. Big deal, it's no Porka. But it's brand, spanking new, all wheel drive, safe and gets me anywhere I want to go. It's also the second most expensive thing I own, after the house.

 

Does this sizeable investment give me any rights to suggest how the next model should be designed and, more importantly, does it entitle me to any upgrades?

 

I bought the middle of the range model and added a few options. Subaru recently released an updated version with some additions that I would really like. Additions that were not even available on the top-end model. Am I entitled to those updates? Of course not! And it's a bloody stupid question.

 

When I drove that car out of the showroom I expected that it would be serviced (at my expense) and that any faults would be rectified under warranty. I did not expect that upgrades would be provided, announced or even offered to me as an owner.

[sbelyaev]

I think it's time for a car analogy.

 

I recently spent $35k on a new Subaru. Not much, you say. Big deal, it's no Porka. But it's brand, spanking new, all wheel drive, safe and gets me anywhere I want to go. It's also the second most expensive thing I own, after the house.

 

Does this sizeable investment give me any rights to suggest how the next model should be designed and, more importantly, does it entitle me to any upgrades?

 

I bought the middle of the range model and added a few options. Subaru recently released an updated version with some additions that I would really like. Additions that were not even available on the top-end model. Am I entitled to those updates? Of course not! And it's a bloody stupid question.

 

When I drove that car out of the showroom I expected that it would be serviced (at my expense) and that any faults would be rectified under warranty. I did not expect that upgrades would be provided, announced or even offered to me as an owner.

 

It is a poor analogy...

What will you do when you discover that instead of 4WD it has FWD? Although, who cares, you have a brand new car. It is shiny. It is Subaru. Your another car can handle tough stuff.

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[jaapv]

In that case, return it immediately. You didn't get the model you ordered. In the M8 there was NO suggestion that there would be any option to use the lenses by selecting it in the menu. You knew that when you bought it. You got what you paid for. To demand that a feature of a successor model be implemented in a discontinued model is simply and plain ridiculous. If you want the menu: buy an M9.

[Gerard]

In my line of work, we educate & inspire people who want to enhance their cars. Your Subaru, for instance, could be enhanced with a simple 'flash' of the ECU to deliver an additional 60bhp (at a cost IRO £350). This is because 3rd parties fiddle with the 'firmware' and make it available to consumers that desire the different set up.

 

I have to say I have no real hunger for any major changes to my M8 firmware, but I'm sure it won't be too long before some 3rd party offers a couple of basic options.

[stunsworth]

This is because 3rd parties fiddle with the 'firmware' and make it available to consumers that desire the different set up

 

But again the question is are they adding new features, or meerly 'switching on' an existing feature that Subaru had decided ought to be switched off by default. There's a world of difference between the two. Personally I'd never buy or install any firmware produced by a third party that had features added to it. There's too much risk involved.

[redbaron]

It is a poor analogy...

What will you do when you discover that instead of 4WD it has FWD? Although, who cares, you have a brand new car. It is shiny. It is Subaru. Your another car can handle tough stuff.

 

I'll call roadside assist and they can take it back to the dealer. My other car went to a good home in Tasmania. It was Land Rover Defender and I took it all over Australia for some of our 4WD magazines. I'm over the tough stuff.

 

But then again, I think this would go just about anywhere the Defender could:

 

 

In my line of work, we educate & inspire people who want to enhance their cars. Your Subaru, for instance, could be enhanced with a simple 'flash' of the ECU to deliver an additional 60bhp (at a cost IRO £350). This is because 3rd parties fiddle with the 'firmware' and make it available to consumers that desire the different set up.

 

I have to say I have no real hunger for any major changes to my M8 firmware, but I'm sure it won't be too long before some 3rd party offers a couple of basic options.

 

Modifying the ECU in Australia voids the warranty, makes it unroadworthy and therefore renders the driver criminally liable if it was found to contribute to a serious accident. My only decision is whether to go for the diesel or the turbo petrol next time around.

 

BTW, what is the little "Thanks" flag next to the quote button?

[Nicoleica]

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BTW, what is the little "Thanks" flag next to the quote button?

 

See above.

[john_newell]

Actually I think that the next firmware update will need a 'hindsight feature' which will allow it to be user programmed via the SDHC card so that it can be made to do things for which it was not originally designed but that might be considered essential in future. I would pay for this, of course;).

 

There ya go.

 

I'm gonna sue the company that made my gasoline-fueled vehicle. They should have provided it with a facility to allow me a free upgrade to operation as a gasoline/electric hybrid. I'm really upset about not getting that free upgrade.

[Angelos Viskadourakis]

It's amazing how quickly this thread just degraded...

 

Let's just put things into perspective. The Canon 30D was released in the same year as the M8. To say that it was Leica's problem that they didn't put enough processing power in the M8 to allow for more future functionality is like blaming Canon for not putting enough processing power in the 30D to allow live view or HD video recording. It's all rather silly.

 

it looks that the word "silly" and "stupid buyer" becomes very every day bread & butter here.

Canon 30D example :lets look at it: Leica M8 with the upgrade or M8.2 costs as much as the next three Canon( four Canons Total including the 30D) models including the HD recording,that is the Difference ,plus the fact that a prosumer Canon is not a Leica M.(where are you Michael MJH to comment about the commas and the long sentences).

Edited July 15, 2010 by Angelos Viskadourakis

[pgk]

Angelos

 

Your are clearly an intelligent person with a brain BUT I have no idea what you actually want. It seems that you expect Leica to upgrade the M8 firmware to include features which may well NOT BE POSSIBLE. Neither you nor many posters here know this but some do have more expertise in the computer field and have suggested that it is minimally difficult and on balance probably impossible, to provide an upgrade with some of the desirable M9 features in it. Do you seriously expect Leica to offer a hardware upgrade for the M8 if a firmware upgrade is not possible? Unless you are able to come up with a reasoned argument which is based on something better than 'it should be so' then you will make me use the 'ignore' feature of this forum which I reserve for only the most irritating of posters.

[jaapv]

The firmware has been read and it is actually quite impossible. Memory has little to do with it. And even if it were possible - what reason would Leica have to do so:confused: This is a feature of the next camera - the M8 is a done deal.

[Angelos Viskadourakis]

Angelos

 

Your are clearly an intelligent person with a brain BUT I have no idea what you actually want. It seems that you expect Leica to upgrade the M8 firmware to include features which may well NOT BE POSSIBLE. Neither you nor many posters here know this but some do have more expertise in the computer field and have suggested that it is minimally difficult and on balance probably impossible, to provide an upgrade with some of the desirable M9 features in it. Do you seriously expect Leica to offer a hardware upgrade for the M8 if a firmware upgrade is not possible? Unless you are able to come up with a reasoned argument which is based on something better than 'it should be so' then you will make me use the 'ignore' feature of this forum which I reserve for only the most irritating of posters.

 

there is only one thing i want,loyalty and professionalism.When a CEO of a company had announced a program and a life investment i expect the next CEO to declare officially the changes in company"s strategy with the same intensity and clarity as the previous CEO did.This is a minimum i can demand from a company that i do _hefty_ business with.

Then we can-- as the market base decide where our money are going based on the business ethics of each company.Nothing more ,nothing less.

I dont expect an answer from forum members but from the CEO himself loud and clear as he should.Then we will decide.......

Edited July 15, 2010 by Angelos Viskadourakis

[redbaron]

Then why not write to the CEO and ask him directly. This is not an AGM.

[pgk]

Then we can-- as the market base decide where our money are going based on the business ethics of each company.Nothing more ,nothing less.

I dont expect an answer from forum members but from the CEO himself loud and clear as he should.Then we will decide.......

Well if you look at prices of Leica M equipment and supplies of secondhand lenses it should be fairly obvious that the market for Leica M equipment is pretty buoyant, so whilst you might not like it, I would say that the market has decided and likes Leica M products.

 

I also tend to agree with Red Baron, you should ask the CEO direct to respond to your misgivings, although I rather doubt that you will be any more satisfied with commercially driven answers from a newer CEO than you will be from many answers posted here.

[jaapv]

Can anybody please explain to me the vital importance of this feature?

 

1. Lenses of 35 mm and longer don't need coding or menu selection

2. 99% of Leica lenses are or can be coded

3. The vast majority of third party lenses can be coded

4. Hand coding works

5. Even if the feature is there, it is most unpractical, as one has to go into the third menu layer at each lens change....And forgets the change in half the cases, screwing up all subsequent images.

[Pintpot]

Jaap

I'm in total agreement with you.

 

After using my M8 for some 4 months now without coding my CV lenses 25, 35, 50

or my old 90 f4 elmar all used with screw to M adaptors. I did try to code the adaptors - but that did not work because of the 'cutout' on them. My 28 Elmarit M ASPH works fine as that was coded from the start. I've had no problems with the other lenses, and am very happy with the results from them all.

It's one thing for Leica to upgrade firmware to solve a problem - that's as it should be, good customer after sales service.

 

But do I need or want extra 'features' to worry about? No - I don't think so. When I got the M8 I got what I wanted, a simple, fuss free camera that I could use all my old screw Leica lenses.

 

It works, fine - great!

 

Tony:rolleyes:

[Angelos Viskadourakis]

Well if you look at prices of Leica M equipment and supplies of secondhand lenses it should be fairly obvious that the market for Leica M equipment is pretty buoyant, so whilst you might not like it, I would say that the market has decided and likes Leica M products.

....... here.

 

That is exactly the point,it is the M8 photographers that establish and enlarge the use of digital M system,it is them that through their work convince thousands other photographers to even look at the M system,any success belongs greatly -if not solely- to their work with their M8"s and on the top of that they offer detail feedback to the company of what has to be corrected in their cameras.They were not paid for their R&D work so far.That is were business ethics come to play and of course success in markets is never long lived if the rules are getting violated and the client base is not treated properly.

[jaapv]

Hmm.. I would say that current prospective M customers are sure to be more interested in M9 work.

[bocaburger]

Can anybody please explain to me the vital importance of this feature?

 

1. Lenses of 35 mm and longer don't need coding or menu selection

2. 99% of Leica lenses are or can be coded

3. The vast majority of third party lenses can be coded

4. Hand coding works

5. Even if the feature is there, it is most unpractical, as one has to go into the third menu layer at each lens change....And forgets the change in half the cases, screwing up all subsequent images.

 

I agree on all points. RE: #5, I have to think people who are clamoring for that feature have never actually used it in practice. I've tried it both with a Nikon DSLR (all my Nikkors are old manual ones) and an M9 and I found it to be every bit the time-wasting PITA I suspected it would be. I have my 15mm C/V coded as a WATE and having to set the menu to 16mm each time is a pain. About the only usefulness to it on an M8 I can see is either a) if you happen to borrow a wide angle lens that isn't coded; b)you own mint collectible lenses you don't even want to take a Sharpie to; and c) as a means to try different coding before permanently self-coding a 3rd-party or other lens not on Leica's codeable-lens list.

Edited July 15, 2010 by bocaburger

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[Alberti]

I can confirm part of this. The part I provisionally can confirm is the bit about the limited experience of programming.

 

Consider even the most simple implementation of the use case "To Manually Enter The Code Of The Lens Attached To The Body".

 

That takes - at a first guesstimate -

• A menu item for enabling/disabling the manual entry of the code. (Query: does the Leica show words or pictograms for that kind of functions? If words, in how many languages?)
  
• A widget allowing the user to select a numerical value in the range [0...63]. As plasticman correctly mentions, that ought not to be all that difficult since all parts of a widget with that kind of function presumably already exist in the camera's software. The date/time picker comes to mind.
  
• Apply the action the camera usually would perform upon reading the code off the lens.This assumes that the code is actually stored in-camera and not just read off the lens for each exposure.
  
• Find all places in the software where the code is read off the lens and stored in the camera's memory. Make those actions contingent on the absence of a manual setting.
  
• Add an extra tag to the EXIF format indicating whether the lens type encoding was manually set or not.
  

 

That would be a very basic implementation of the function. Once that implementation was published, people would clamour for more functionality:

• Show a list of the lens identifiers (name, focal length, aperture) instead of only code numbers
  
• Warn user if lens actually is encoded and does not agree with the code manually set .
  
• Warn user if another lens is mounted and the code is not confirmed or reset by the user.
  
• Add controls for handling lenses for which there is no code
  

 

There might be some important points missing as I noted just the most obvious consequences of the proposed functionality.

 

You don't add an extra speed to your gearbox by adding an extra button to your dashboard.

 

Pop,

great list,

I'd like to add the requirement that :

- a list of owned lenses is made (over time) from those selected previously.

- as the new lens is put on the camera, the bayonet transfers the viewfinder frame, and the software looks up the "possible" lenses in the stock.

The logic could work something like this:

• if there is only one owned (take for instance someone having a 28mm lens and not a 90 mm lens) this would give that available lens.
  
• if there aremore lenses, then the list would pop up for faster selecting.
  
• If a 90 mm is owned that is coded, that will display.
  

Of course if it is self-learning, we would have the need to clear it the list. Or otherwise, we could add the lenses by hand.

 

This would benefit the M9 too.

I expect the software to be generically replaceable between the models for a large part.

albert