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frank_filippone

Would you pay for a FW update with some added Features?

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I have an M8 and lenses that can not be coded... the mounts are not easily removed. Examples include my Pre-ASPH 35 Summilux and 50 pre_ASPH Summilux. There are others. I wish the EXIF file to contain my lens type. For other lenses, there are image corrections that need to be made that are selected based upon lens criteria. The solution is a lens menu like in the M9.

Leica has not decided to include this feature in the 2.005 FW update. There have been claims that it is impossible to do or that there was a decision not to include it. However, I feel there is a real market for such an update, and that the menu could be added and that Leica could charge for this improvement.

 

What is the overall opinion out there... would you pay for a FW update that would include a Lens Selection Menu? How much would you pay?

 

What other features would you be willing to pay for?

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I have thought about this and was inclined to say yes before fw 2.005 came.

 

Since noting that they only fixed something (nice fix, folks!!) and didn't add any functionality, and since this camera body is "old" and Leica seems only to want to maintain it and not enhance it, then I don't want a new feature that might break -- in a device they don't want to do much with.

 

I had 2 M8's and got rid of one when I got the M9. I use the M8 for backup. It was very nice to see last night that the bug with continuous shooting has been fixed.

 

Way to go, Leica!

 

I believe we need to change our mindset. The digi-M's are computers. All computers last just a short time. I got 4.5 years out of my last dozer (windoze machine) and switched to a MBP -- noting at the time that Apple has a very specific 3-year window of maintenance on their hardware.

 

So, lenses last forever, M3's, 4', 5', 6's, and 7's (and those IIIg's and the like) last forever. Digi-cam's, not so long.

 

Cars, computers, digicams" tick, tick, tick.

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I would not pay a cent. I Think that, given they have the chance to, they should have given us at least the Lens Selection Menu with this last firmware.

I'm quite annoyed with Leica folks.

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Haven't we been told that there isn't enough processing power or memory in an M8 to allow this to manual lens selection to happen?

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Haven't we been told that there isn't enough processing power or memory in an M8 to allow this to manual lens selection to happen?

I guess so but there are so many post suggesting that Leica should not support its customers that such statements sound hard to believe imo.

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Who has suggested that Leica shouldn't support their customers? Isn't this exactly what they have done with fw 2.005?

 

Making _enhancements_ is different from _supporting_. Even if they wanted to add manual coding to the M8, if it's not technically possible, they can't do it.

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Haven't we been told that there isn't enough processing power or memory in an M8 to allow this to manual lens selection to happen?

 

Andy - a few people have asserted this (without any evidence).

 

As far as I know, the camera must use a look-up table to match the 6-bit codes to an internal list of known lenses. With my somewhat limited experience of programming, I'd say a modified menu item should actually be a relatively trivial affair: switching the selection to user-defined input instead of camera-read codes.

 

I'd be frankly dumbfounded if adding a menu-selection to the user interface was beyond the capacity of either camera or programmer. It is the simplest type of list, with trivial processing: each table entry will have a simple identifier, and each menu item would be mapped to that identifier (probably a single integer).

 

As I said elsewhere, I'm not personally invested in this issue anymore, but I fail to see how it's in Leica's interests to disappoint so many loyal customers in this way. The firmware was such a long time coming that (sometimes unrealistic) expectations were allowed to flourish unchecked.

 

But in all fairness, this one issue of lens coding should always have been available as a manual input imo. It was conceived as a means of extra revenue generation, and having outlived that purpose it would surely have been seen as a gesture of goodwill to remove the inconvenience for those who still have uncoded lenses, or lenses that simply can't be coded, like the OP.

 

Instead of this, the company generates a new set of grumblers instead - some of them off to buy Canikons, no doubt, if only out of spite.

 

It's an issue of managing and nurturing your brand, rather than software development.

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Who has suggested that Leica shouldn't support their customers? Isn't this exactly what they have done with fw 2.005?...

Repairing a bug was rather a duty if you ask me.

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I have thought quite carefully about this and come the the conclusion that my answer is 'no'.

Personally, I couldn't see the point in paying extra to have an M8 upgraded to M8.2 spec with new shutter and / or sapphire screen and I even see less point in buying additional features in firmware that in all honesty I wouldn't use.

I have upgraded both my M8 bodies to 2.004 - I tried the discreet mode a couple of times but found it was not much use to me. Likewise, the auto-iso. I can see it has its uses, but I am a bit of a control freak, so would rather change the ISO myself.

As far as new features are concerned, in all seriousness, I really can't think of anything that would improve the camera for me.

I can live without a menu to choose a given lens type, so I'm not bothered that it hasn't been included. I have had trouble enough remembering to choose the correct focal length when I use my 15mm CV, which is coded as a WATE. When I was in the market for a Leica wide angle, I had the choice of the WATE or 18mm super Elmar and opted for the latter as there was no need to faff around with menus.

 

Apart from my 12mm CV, I think all of my Leica and CV lenses are coded anyway.

 

At the end of the day, tweaking the firmware will not change the camera's ability to make excellent pictures one iota.

 

For me, the M8 is 'good enough' as it is. I love the simplicity of the camera and its user-interface. Rather than pay for new functionality on a camera that is now discontinued, I'd rather put that money into getting an M9 / 10 sometime in the future so I can use my lenses without the crop factor.

 

FWIW, I feel we should enjoy the fact that we have a camera that is capable of using virtually any rangefinder lens or accessory made since the original screw thread system was introduced way back in the last century and in the right hands, making superb photographs.

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After the R10 debacle, Leica is just taking the least steps to fulfil their duties towards their loyal customers. Nothing more. Why should they care after all. Don't they earn a lot of money with the M9? We should be proud to have spent little fortunes for people like that.

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Andy, anything is ok with my M8 and i'm glad they eventually released a new firmware fixing one bug.

What I presume, though, is that with firmware 2.005 Laica is telling me: «Boy, if you want some more, just trash you 4500 euros camera and spend other 5400 to buy an M9.»

That's ok with me as well, but i would have expected some more care from them.

This said, I'm using my M8 today with the same pleasure i had before and still love it.

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I don't understand at all what you expect Leica to do. Make your M8 into an M9 via firmware, for nothing?

 

Your M8 takes photographs better than it did when it was new, via the fw updates that they have given over the years.

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Make your M8 into an M9 via firmware, for nothing

 

Darnit I've forgotten what the Latin for this sort of argument is - someone help me out?

 

Setting-up a false statement of what the other side is proposing in order to more easily knock it down. I know this is a classical rhetorical device, but I can't remember what it's called.

 

The term would be mighty useful in these threads, where it's often stated that some simple (and fair - see my ignored post above for instance

) updates are somehow transmuted into expecting Leica to 'turn our M8s into M9s for free'.

 

So who's got that Latin?

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Darnit I've forgotten what the Latin for this sort of argument is - someone help me out?

 

Setting-up a false statement of what the other side is proposing in order to more easily knock it down. I know this is a classical rhetorical device, but I can't remember what it's called.

 

The term would be mighty useful in these threads, where it's often stated that some simple (and fair - see my ignored post above for instance

) updates are somehow transmuted into expecting Leica to 'turn our M8s into M9s for free'.

 

So who's got that Latin?

 

That's unfair. I'm just trying to understand what's being asked for here.

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That's unfair. I'm just trying to understand what's being asked for here.

 

A small candy? Just to tell that Leica care to those that do not have the chance to get a new expensive camera. I do not think that giving me the Lens Selection Menu would turn my M8 into an M9. It would just make me feel cared after allowing me to better use my uncoded lenses.

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That's unfair. I'm just trying to understand what's being asked for here.

 

Oh well - I looked it up myself and the nearest I can find is 'argumentum ad logicam' - but really that's not what I wanted, which was the Latin for Straw Man - which I already knew.

The great thing about these Latin terms is that they really, really help to knock down the opposition - especially on a forum like this, where everyone fancies him (or her) self as a cut above the intellectual average (and that isn't aimed at anyone - just a general observation).

 

Anyway, the point is that naturally no-one expects a free M9 out of these updates.

 

The whole firmware discussion is really illuminating though.

I'm not expecting or hoping for anything in particular, but I must say it would've given me a warm feeling of 'brand righteousness' if Leica had gone ahead and invested the miniscule amount of time and effort that I believe would have resulted in manual lens recognition.

 

Compared to the Nikon D90 that I'm always moaning to my friends about (my partner never uses it, I've sort of inherited it back from her - but hate it - we reluctantly use it for filming our two-year old), I could've boasted that Leica looks after its loyal customers - even after the camera has been superseded by a newer model! (And don't tell me that taking over a year to fix a firmware bug that can wreck your shutter is 'looking after their customers', because in all seriousness, it's not).

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I do not think that giving me the Lens Selection Menu would turn my M8 into an M9.

Leica’s statement that they’ve tried and it cannot be done still stands, unfortunately. I have said it time and again that a firmware update fixing bugs was to be expected while new features were not, and that’s exactly how it went (while I’m not quite Paul the octopus my hit rate predicting firmware updates is higher than some other member’s). Don’t nurture unrealistic hopes and you won’t be disappointed.

Edited by mjh

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Customer feedback to Leica Camera has resulted in some extra functionality in M8 firmware before and at no charge.

 

In regard to the manual lens selection options, Stefan Daniel addressed this in the Luminous Landscape interview on the M9 10 months ago. (may be slightly paraphrased).

 

"I can explain why you did not see that on the M8 because it was simply a question of money... So here starting from scratch with the development it was easy to put it in upfront. But to put it into an existing firmware was not that easy. On a finished product/project to put it in was not that easy"

 

Not said By Stefan Daniel; my thoughts:

Assuming that there is room and facility to add the manual lens selections, the reason for those codes is to allow the camera to apply vignette/cyan drift corrections. Those corrections in the M9 are completely different to the ones in the M8 for obvious reasons. You cannot just take those corrections from the M9 and add them to the M8. For the few non-codable lens models at the very least you would need new corrections developed for those as well.

 

On suitability for the M8 hardware he does explain that image board, sensor board and A/D converter are very different. I thought that suggests that implementing other M9 features into M8 hardware may be difficult or impossible but that is only my opinion also.

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