George61d Posted December 31, 2006 Share #1 Posted December 31, 2006 Advertisement (gone after registration) I am primarily a digital shooter, but for a whole bunch of reasons I decided recently to augment my business with B&W film. I need some basic advice before delving in. I am sure these have been covered before - so if you want to point me to another thread thats fine. 1) I ran a test roll of Kodak C41 B&W the other day just to test that my camera was fine after a long lay up. I was very dissapointed in the sharpness of the images. Is this typical of a C41 B&W and are iIford Delta/Fuji Neopan naturally sharper ? 2) Perceptol is good for fine grain at the cost of a stop. Ilford's own documentation does not provide times for ilford delta 400 - does anyone have experience in developing this or higher rated ilford films in Perceptol. 3) Rodinol is a high acutance developer - is this at the expense of smooth tonal transitions ? and how does Rodinal compare to perceptol interms of perceived image sharpness. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted December 31, 2006 Posted December 31, 2006 Hi George61d, Take a look here ilford, Fuji, Perceptol.....help. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
Dan States Posted January 1, 2007 Share #2 Posted January 1, 2007 Rodinal is one of the oldest developers around, and was primarily designed for larger formats. It creates an "impression" of sharpness that is really just increased accutance and grain. If you like grain, it is fine. There is a lot of mythology around developers and resolution. Suffice it to say that D76 and Acros or Tmax100 will still out-resolve your technique 99% of the time. I am not aware of a developer that TRULY increases resolution. The film you choose will be a bigger factor, if you develop it properly. If you want ultimate sharpness get a t-grain film. Work on getting a full tonal scale on your prints, and let the sharpness fall where it will. As long as you did not over expose or over process, you are getting what the film can deliver. It is amazing how many images I see printed and on the web that are compositionally great but are let down by lousy gradation. Ultimate resolution behond the threshold of human perception is not as important as proper gradation in the print. If you are planning on shooting the older films like Adox, Rodinal is not a good choice. It emphasizes the natural tendancy of these films to clump and migrate. I say this as a guy who spent years skipping from one "miracle" developer to the next. After trying everything from PYRO to Perceptol to Neofin blue to Pattersons to Ilfosol to Rodinal to you name it, I've landed back where I started...D76. These days it's one film, one developer and one paper. I let the variables occur in the shooting, not the printing. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
fotohuis Posted January 1, 2007 Share #3 Posted January 1, 2007 Here is a nice overview: http://www.fotohuisrovo.nl/documentatie/filmontwikkelaars_en.pdf and for searching to an ultimate high definition film and developer follow this (also Leica ) link: http://www.leica-camera-user.com/film-forum/12679-sharpness.html Best regards, Robert Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stunsworth Posted January 1, 2007 Share #4 Posted January 1, 2007 George, try some Ilford FP4 or Tri-X in Xtol. I've never lived the C41 films for the reasons you mention, they've always lacked 'bite' - when scanned in my case as I don't have a darkroom. They are very smooth and low in grain but lacking something IMHO. It you can't get hold of Xtol D76 as mentioned by Dan would be a good starting point - or ID11 by Ilford which is a very similar formula. If you need developing times look here - Digitaltruth Photo - and click on 'Massive Development Chart', it'll give you a starting point at least. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
George61d Posted January 1, 2007 Author Share #5 Posted January 1, 2007 Dan, Robert, Steve Thanks for your prompt and helpful replies, I will digest this information tonight. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
fotohuis Posted January 1, 2007 Share #6 Posted January 1, 2007 Just a tip which will cover 95% of your needs: Fuji Acros 100 (E.I. 80) and SPUR SD2525. If you want to compete with (small) medium format: Rollei PAN25 and AM50 or RLS/CG-512. or the mentioned micro films (SPUR) for high resolution. At the end you maybe will trade in your Leica M for a Mamiya M7 II. 35mm can NEVER compete with medium/large format but with a Leica M you can get CLOSE to it. Another thing is that you can produce photos with a Leica M that you could NEVER made by another camera because that one was too clumsy/big or missed the catch moment. THAT is Leica photography. The film inside is less important! Happy New Year: Fotohuis RoVo's Gallery - Home Robert Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ron110n Posted February 7, 2007 Share #7 Posted February 7, 2007 Advertisement (gone after registration) Hi George, Here's another goodie for Traditional Photography. I'm sure you will like the link. Fun with Film Cheers! -Ron Creature of Habbits or the Caveman within Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
krl_schmidt Posted February 7, 2007 Share #8 Posted February 7, 2007 If one uses the hybrid way, the C41 films are almost the best you can get. Baut you have to be really fit with the scanner software and in using Photoshop. Then you can produce any graduation you like. The only thing you should NOT do is to imitate grain. That's up to Tri-X and other high grain films. The antipathy of the old fashioned's to the C41's is due to fact, that they can't roll it on the floor for developing. In my opinion a standard process is better than spending gallons and gallons of developer to find out an acceptable result for just ONE emulsion and ONE used speed which in the end forces you to use only this one combination. Otherwise you won't have time to go out for taking pictures. reagrds mik Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ron110n Posted February 7, 2007 Share #9 Posted February 7, 2007 Nothing wrong with B&W C41, but the only draw back is; there is not much you can do with it being RGB. Same as the colored RGB. The end of the road is just too soon if you do your own C41 processing. Likewise, that goes to E6 too. Don't we think so. Too red, too blue, too green etc, how borring. Cheers! -Ron Creature of Habbits or the Caveman within Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
christer Posted February 7, 2007 Share #10 Posted February 7, 2007 Hi Dan, please let me comment on your contribution. For some reason the comments appear as a quote below, so I have marked them accordingly. Rodinal is one of the oldest developers around, and was primarily designed for larger formats. It creates an "impression" of sharpness that is really just increased accutance and grain. If you like grain, it is fine. Comment: There is ugly grain (muddy) on beautiful grain, like what you get with 35mm HP5 in Rodinal There is a lot of mythology around developers and resolution. Suffice it to say that D76 and Acros or Tmax100 will still out-resolve your technique 99% of the time. I am not aware of a developer that TRULY increases resolution. The film you choose will be a bigger factor, if you develop it properly. If you want ultimate sharpness get a t-grain film. Comment: I do not think that you will get ultimate sharpness automatically using t-grain film. You will get less grain, but these films only look sharp in a few developers including Rodinal Work on getting a full tonal scale on your prints, and let the sharpness fall where it will. As long as you did not over expose or over process, you are getting what the film can deliver. Comment: And use a tripod! It is amazing how many images I see printed and on the web that are compositionally great but are let down by lousy gradation. Ultimate resolution behond the threshold of human perception is not as important as proper gradation in the print. Comment: YES If you are planning on shooting the older films like Adox, Rodinal is not a good choice. It emphasizes the natural tendancy of these films to clump and migrate. Comment: I do not find these films (in 35mm) good in any developer. I say this as a guy who spent years skipping from one "miracle" developer to the next. After trying everything from PYRO to Perceptol to Neofin blue to Pattersons to Ilfosol to Rodinal to you name it, I've landed back where I started...D76. Comment: Dear collegue, try just one more developer, the SPUR 2525. These days it's one film, one developer and one paper. I let the variables occur in the shooting, not the printing. Comment: You are obviously a very wise man. What have you settled on? (Film and paper and chemistry!) Me: TMX, SD 2525 and Kodak Polymax where my stock should last some time yet. Rgds, Chris Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
George61d Posted February 7, 2007 Author Share #11 Posted February 7, 2007 My thanks to every one on this thread...so what did I do with it. Right now I am extremely busy at work and what spare time I have is taken up with a book I am working on as well as a photo league that I am involved in - so after experimenting with various C41 B&W for the moment I have settled on XP2. Its meeting my needs for now. I will try out some of these suggestions over the comming months and may report back with my personal observations. cheers Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mehmet arcasoy Posted February 9, 2007 Share #12 Posted February 9, 2007 Dear Leica Friends, If you want to best results by film I can advise following equipment; Film : Kodak Tri-X 400 B&W negative film Developer : Kodak D-76 stock solution to dilution 1+1.(1 part stock sol.D76 +1 part water) These C41 film can gives extremely fine grain but can not give extreme tonal graduation. So we always use on photojurnalism Kodak Tri-X 400 other hand,Tri-X 400 is a calibration master for all other B&W films. Regards Mehmet ARCASOY Journalist from TURKEY / ISTANBUL Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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