jpg therapy with the M8 (the eye of the storm)

[jonoslack]

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Hi There

2 days left - then mine's off to Solms.

I've been fiddling about with jpgs a little (it bugs me so much that Aperture won't do the dng files).

 

We are having a few days break at our place near Lands End. Today I took the camera and the dog out for a walk in the driving rain - it turned to hail, and got quite nasty - I could see the spray a mile away going way up into the air over the brisons. Anyway, I had the camera set on jpg. Sometimes I like to shoot jpg, as it keeps me 'on the ball', and I find the colour of the M8 jpg's to be really excellent (maybe it's the Kodak sensor - the E1 jpgs are also excellent).

 

Suddenly the skies started to clear, and I was treated to the most spectacular display of stormy colours.

 

Here are a couple of samples. Some PP in photoshop, but all jpg.

 

This is a view down to Lands End from Chapel Carn Brae - you could hardly stand up the wind was so strong.

 

I was almost home here - two hail storms and a soaked camera . . . and then it did this!

 

 

This one was actually shot yesterday - there is a similar one in the photo forum, but I couldn't resist throwing it into the mix:

 

 

The point of this thread that the M8 does grand jpgs - maybe you don't want to use them, but the colour is rich and accurate, the dynamic range is excellent, you lose a little detail, but that isn't always the deciding factor.

 

Happy new year!

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[jonoslack]

Two More and I'm done.

 

More spectacular weather - it looked like armageddon!

 

And finally - just before home

 

 

all taken with the 28-35-50 tri-elmar - it's tough changing lenses in a force 10 gale with driving hail, so the tri-elmar was a great compromise.

 

Mostly shot at ISO 160 - the last one here was at ISO 320

 

Thanks for looking

[Mark D]

Beautiful pictures.

 

What camera settings did you use ?

 

Also did you use Auto White Balance ?

 

Thanks

Mark

[Riley]

thats a fabulous shot on the beach

[marknorton]

I also enjoy using JPGs which reduces the need to be a slave to the computer. Of course, I use the highest resolution and lowest compression and I also turn down the contrast and saturation a notch.

 

Biggest issue for good pictures right out of the camera for me is white balance and I routinely now use a colour meter to enter the colour temperature rather than rely on the camera's flakey AWB.

[grober]

Jono,

 

Thanks for posting. You skill with the M8 is enviable.

 

Whilst the M8 is gone to Solms for a re-fit, I should be learning Capture One. But your work shown here begs the question: if JPG can produce such magnificant results, why would anyone need to result to raw (or DNG) and wrestle with Capture One when we can shoot JPS all the time and flow it easily through PS?

 

Can anyone sell me on the benefits for DNG with this camera?

 

-g

[Jamie Roberts]

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Can anyone sell me on the benefits for DNG with this camera?

 

-g

 

First--Jono--many, many thanks for the photographic treat! Those shots are wonderful, and I wouldn't care what camera made them.

 

To the point: the benefits of DNG don't present themselves quite so much in natural light--no matter how unearthly (as in the examples here), and if you nail (and I mean nail) the exposure, which Jono does

 

But once you have mixed light, or an under / over exposure, then JPEGs, IMO, are mostly a pain (or, as Mark points out, if you need to nail white balance beforehand, which you don't need to do in RAW). I personally don't like applying much sharpening--the way a JPEG does--till I'm printing, either, so RAW is better there too.

 

Applying an input profile is also a huge bonus, in my books, of RAW shooting.

 

Alas, this is not just theory for me Someone (don't know who!) got hold of my M8 this past xmas and changed my camera settings from DNG to JPEG fine.

 

Yikes!

 

I didn't notice till I went into C1--my usual workflow--and thought I had a bad card--why weren't all my snaps showing?!

 

Now I have 100 JPEGs. All family stuff, but still! And for the most part I'm pretty impressed.

 

Anyway, here's a shot of my son, and I love it, and the JPEG did a great job considering I had the camera set to daylight WB, it was underexposed, and it was mixed daylight and flourescent (!).

 

But these results took **way** longer in PS to get than it would have in C1 or LightZone (where I could actually have had two separate WB adjustments or changed profiles with two develops;) Can't do that with a JPEG (though you can play endlessly in PS...).

 

M8 50 lux ASPH @ 1.4 (no filter) JPEG fine ISO 1250 + mucho photoshop...

 

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[marknorton]

You can certainly say those shots are at the difficult end of getting the exposure right. Jono, are you using AE here with any EV compensation or metering manually? Instinctively, I would expect to have to use C1/DNG to fix the exposure on these types of shot with extreme contrast.

 

I like to shoot with DNG+JPEG fine and most of the time, the JPEG works for me. If it doesn't, it's much easier to use C1 to work with the DNG than it is to use PS to work with the JPEG.

[scott kirkpatrick]

I like to shoot with DNG+JPEG fine and most of the time, the JPEG works for me. If it doesn't, it's much easier to use C1 to work with the DNG than it is to use PS to work with the JPEG.

 

My experience with the E1 (which has close sensor relationship to the M8) is that I quickly got so used to C1 (and was even faster in the late, lamented, RSP), that processing everything from the RAW became second nature, took no extra time, and produced a natural separation of keepers (made into jpegs). Just having the keepers clearly identified allowed me an intuitive backup strategy -- keep the keepers online longer, backup everything at RAW level. So I see RAW as default, and jpegs as a temptation to do everything a little differently.

 

Jono, you said the M8 got soaked. And then?

 

scott

[jonoslack]

Beautiful pictures.

 

What camera settings did you use ?

 

Also did you use Auto White Balance ?

 

Thanks

Mark

HI Mark

They're all ISO 320 except for the big skyscape which is 160

White balance was set either to cloudy, or daylight (difficult decision in that sort of light). I never use Auto white balance as it seems to lure you into a false sense of security and then do something horrid! On the other hand, unlike some cameras, the LCD seems to show the colours quite accurately, so that if you forget to change it you get a pretty obvious warning quite fast.

 

These were all set on Auto exposure, but I never take it for granted in that sort of light, and usually wave the camera about until it's giving me something I like, and then half press the shutter to hold it. I don't often use exposure compensation (sometimes in drab light +1/3, and sometimes in predictable contrasty light -1/3)

 

happy new year

[jonoslack]

I also enjoy using JPGs which reduces the need to be a slave to the computer. Of course, I use the highest resolution and lowest compression and I also turn down the contrast and saturation a notch.

 

Biggest issue for good pictures right out of the camera for me is white balance and I routinely now use a colour meter to enter the colour temperature rather than rely on the camera's flakey AWB.

 

Hi Mark

I also use low saturation - contrast depends on the lighting. I also turn the sharpening 'off' as I find it is less prone to smearing detail (the only real problem with the M8 jpg I think).

 

I quite agree about the white balance, I've never used a colour meter, occasionally I use a grey card, but of course, using a grey card in those red shots would have completely removed the colour! (there's 'correct' colour and 'right' colour, and in natural light outside they aren't the same things at all!).

 

Happy New Year

[jonoslack]

Jono,

 

Thanks for posting. You skill with the M8 is enviable.

 

Whilst the M8 is gone to Solms for a re-fit, I should be learning Capture One. But your work shown here begs the question: if JPG can produce such magnificant results, why would anyone need to result to raw (or DNG) and wrestle with Capture One when we can shoot JPS all the time and flow it easily through PS?

 

Can anyone sell me on the benefits for DNG with this camera?

 

-g

 

Hi there J.W.

I've given up on Capture One - the light edition is a pain in the backside, and the pro edition is too expensive - but it's the whole Raw converter model I dislike (not RAW per-se) - I use Aperture most of the time, and I've been using Lightroom a bit with the M8 (as Aperture won't deal with the M8 raw files yest). It's a completely different way of working, but more on that later (in answer to Jamie's excellent post below).

 

There are lots of reasons to use DNG, and, to be honest, there isn't much of a reason not to shoot both - Sometimes I like to shoot jpg only, as it adds an edge to the proceedings which makes me think harder before shooting.

 

Thanks for posting - I hope your camera comes back better!

 

happy new year

[jonoslack]

First--Jono--many, many thanks for the photographic treat! Those shots are wonderful, and I wouldn't care what camera made them.

 

Hi Jamie

Thank you for the kind words - I guess the truth is that we could both write a book on this subject, but I'll try and be as brief as possible.

 

To the point: the benefits of DNG don't present themselves quite so much in natural light--no matter how unearthly (as in the examples here), and if you nail (and I mean nail) the exposure, which Jono does

 

Not simply that - I have completely failed to get good greens from the M8 shooting RAW, either from Capture One, Lightroom or ACR - I know you've put a lot of effort into your profiles, but I still don't think they come near to the colour from jpgs.

 

This was borne out in Anders Uschold's tests in the British Journal of Photography, where he found the colour in jpgs to be extremely accurate (assuming you nail the white balance and exposure of course).

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm not advocating shooting jpg only on the M8 (or any other camera) it's just that IMHO at the moment the jpgs produce the best colour. To be honest, whilst shooting those amazing colours, I thought I'd switched to DNG + JPG, but in my hurry (it didn't last 5 minutes) I'd obviously done it wrong. However, I am using the jpgs most of the time (storing the DNG files for when Aperture comes up with the goods).

 

But once you have mixed light, or an under / over exposure, then JPEGs, IMO, are mostly a pain (or, as Mark points out, if you need to nail white balance beforehand, which you don't need to do in RAW). I personally don't like applying much sharpening--the way a JPEG does--till I'm printing, either, so RAW is better there too.

 

First thing with the jpgs is to switch sharpening off completely (which the M8 will allow) - and then do an initial sharpening in processing, and another when printing - the in camera sharpening smears detail.

 

I think there is a big dichotomy in photographers between those using Lightroom or Aperture and those using Capture One and other more 'traditional' RAW converters. I really like the whole paradigm of not batching out converted files and storing changes in a data file instead (and so does my storage budget!). Another interesting feature of both Aperture and Lightroom is that you have access to white balance controls for jpgs - of course, they aren't perfect, but they do work. I just wish that Apple would get their act together and support the M8 - otherwise I'm going to be forced back to the old methods.

 

We are all aiming for excellence in our photographs, at the moment I think that for natural light in rural areas there is an argument that in some circumstances jpg will produce better results than RAW. Many photographers dismiss shooting jpg out of hand, and the purpose of this thread was to suggest that there are some circumstances where this might be re-examined.

 

Thanks for posting Jamie - that's a great shot of your kid (jpg or not!)

 

Happy New Year to you and yours.

[jonoslack]

My experience with the E1 (which has close sensor relationship to the M8) is that I quickly got so used to C1 (and was even faster in the late, lamented, RSP), that processing everything from the RAW became second nature, took no extra time, and produced a natural separation of keepers (made into jpegs). Just having the keepers clearly identified allowed me an intuitive backup strategy -- keep the keepers online longer, backup everything at RAW level. So I see RAW as default, and jpegs as a temptation to do everything a little differently.

 

 

HI Scott

Thanks for posting.

I HATE C1! I know it's only me, but I've spent a month with the pro version, and I breathed a huge sigh of relief when the trial period ran out! Maybe version 4 will suit me better. Still, I had no complaints with the conversions which seem excellent. With the E1 I shot jpg almost exclusively - I just trusted the colour implicitly - I'm sure that the M8 will never be quite like that (and I haven't shot a Nikon jpg for several years!).

 

One of the nice things about Lightroom or Aperture is that you can treat jpg and RAW exactly the same way - in fact, it's quite easy to forget which is which (or, it will be when Apple get off their backsides and support the M8).

 

Jono, you said the M8 got soaked. And then?

 

scott

It got dry again! I wouldn't normally tempt fate, but as it's going to Solms on Tuesday . . .

 

Happy New Year

[jonoslack]

You can certainly say those shots are at the difficult end of getting the exposure right. Jono, are you using AE here with any EV compensation or metering manually? Instinctively, I would expect to have to use C1/DNG to fix the exposure on these types of shot with extreme contrast.

 

Hi Mark

Well, I mostly use AE - but waggle the camera about until I get what seems right and then half press the shutter and refocus - as you say, these sort of exposures are tricky to get right, generally speaking I work on the basis that nothing should be over-exposed, and the rest follows.

 

I do find that shooting jpg makes me more careful though - sometimes I find that I've assumed I can fix it in RAW . . . . . . and then I can't!

 

As long as you switch off sharpening on the M8 jpgs, they will put up with a great deal of dodging and burning/curves etc. (Much more than most jpgs). I do wish they did a very low compression jpg like Olympus do though.

 

 

I like to shoot with DNG+JPEG fine and most of the time, the JPEG works for me. If it doesn't, it's much easier to use C1 to work with the DNG than it is to use PS to work with the JPEG.

 

But with this sort of shot you are usually going to need some work in photoshop anyway - until RAW converters have selections (or at least some sort of dodge and burn tool).

 

Happy New Year!

[tashley]

Hi There

2 days left - then mine's off to Solms.

I've been fiddling about with jpgs a little (it bugs me so much that Aperture won't do the dng files).

 

We are having a few days break at our place near Lands End. Today I took the camera and the dog out for a walk in the driving rain - it turned to hail, and got quite nasty - I could see the spray a mile away going way up into the air over the brisons. Anyway, I had the camera set on jpg. Sometimes I like to shoot jpg, as it keeps me 'on the ball', and I find the colour of the M8 jpg's to be really excellent (maybe it's the Kodak sensor - the E1 jpgs are also excellent).

 

Suddenly the skies started to clear, and I was treated to the most spectacular display of stormy colours.

 

Here are a couple of samples. Some PP in photoshop, but all jpg.

 

This is a view down to Lands End from Chapel Carn Brae - you could hardly stand up the wind was so strong.

 

I was almost home here - two hail storms and a soaked camera . . . and then it did this!

 

 

This one was actually shot yesterday - there is a similar one in the photo forum, but I couldn't resist throwing it into the mix:

 

 

The point of this thread that the M8 does grand jpgs - maybe you don't want to use them, but the colour is rich and accurate, the dynamic range is excellent, you lose a little detail, but that isn't always the deciding factor.

 

Happy new year!

 

 

Hi Jono,

 

According to the BJP review, the best DR you can squeeze from an M8 is to shoot JPEG at ISO160 - where you get half a stop more DR than any other method!

 

Tim

[sergiolov]

Hi Jono,

 

According to the BJP review, the best DR you can squeeze from an M8 is to shoot JPEG at ISO160 - where you get half a stop more DR than any other method!

 

Tim

 

Hi Tim, Jono and all,

my experience also that in daylight colors, and greens in particular, are very good in jpg.

But I need to care to switch back to dng in other situations. On Christmas night, with all the extended family posing for groups in a scene lighted by the fireplace,and dim tungsten, I forgot... Well, I was able to recover just one from the disaster, and then I told them all that it was an ARTISTIC shot.

Following day, same situation, (I do not have IR cut filters) I could appreciate the splendid work made by Jamie Roberts with his profiles. Thanks, Jamie.

Have, all, a wonderful new year.

Sergio

[Your Old Dog]

I would really like to see your last shot of the muddy road in B&W. I think if the vegetation went black and all the sublte grey tones existed in the roadway and sky that it would be a very beautiful print.

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Hallo,

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[jonoslack]

Hi Jono,

 

According to the BJP review, the best DR you can squeeze from an M8 is to shoot JPEG at ISO160 - where you get half a stop more DR than any other method!

 

Tim

 

Hi Tim

Back in the UK? all good I hope. I'd forgotten about the DR stuff - there are reasons not to shoot jpg - but it certainly cuts both ways.

[jonoslack]

Hi Tim, Jono and all,

my experience also that in daylight colors, and greens in particular, are very good in jpg.

But I need to care to switch back to dng in other situations. On Christmas night, with all the extended family posing for groups in a scene lighted by the fireplace,and dim tungsten, I forgot... Well, I was able to recover just one from the disaster, and then I told them all that it was an ARTISTIC shot.

Following day, same situation, (I do not have IR cut filters) I could appreciate the splendid work made by Jamie Roberts with his profiles. Thanks, Jamie.

Have, all, a wonderful new year.

Sergio

 

HI Sergio

I think I've got to grips with the idea that I must always press the SET button when I'm going out for a new shoot, or even just picking the camera up. It's becoming second nature now, and when I get a little less lazy, I'll set up the user profiles.

 

It isn't just the jpg setting that needs checking, but also the white balance (auto WB, although I've used it with pretty much every other digital camera I've ever had, is pretty much a no go with the M8).