Doesn't make sense!

[farnz]

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Many of us are eagerly awaiting the arrival of an M8 and have placed deposits with dealers in order to join waiting lists.

 

I've been informed by my dealer, the main Leica dealer in London, that I'm unlikely to receive one before February, but most likely in March, even though I've been on the list since October.

 

Yet there appear to be M8s currently being shipped to small dealers who have no confirmed orders (as per the attached thread).

 

http://www.leica-camera-user.com/digital-forum/12126-local-shop-has-silver-m8-what.html

 

Considering that demand for M8s is obviously considerably outstripping supply does this seem to be a sensible policy by Leica or could my dealer be at fault somehow?

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[marknorton]

I don't think cameras are allocated according to the number of people waiting; a "main" dealership will get more than a small dealership but may have many times the number of people waiting.

 

The whole recall thing had probably set things back a month and of course, once you have paid your deposit, you cannot "surf" the dealerships looking for a camera.

 

Taking a chrome camera will likely get you one faster.

 

Don't forget that if you want to take advantage of the 30% lens offer, you need to pay for your camera by 31 December.

[wilfredo]

I got mine from a smaller dealer, no waiting.

 

Wilfredo+

Benitez-Rivera Photography

[ho_co]

Consider other things as well, and don't blame Leica:

 

Big dealers will indeed get first service, but then delivery must be made as well to smaller accounts.

 

Sometimes a big dealer may not order enough of a product; once he sees that he has more demand than he anticipated, he places another order, but this one is a month or so behind the first order. Leica is unaware of how many people he has on his list; they know only how many cameras he has on order with them and when they were placed. Older orders have priority, of course.

 

Sometimes a dealer sees fit to pay other suppliers first and gets behind with another supplier. Maybe Brand X is offering a 10%-off-invoice special for all goods bought and paid before Dec 31. Leica isn't doing that, so a dealer might spend his cash for Brand X. If he gets behind with Leica, his shipments go to the end of the queue.

 

And in my experience, having worked for Leica US for a number of years, it was impossible to say to a dealer, "you won't get it before March," because one never knows Leica's delivery schedule except in general terms.

 

In other words, I think there's something going on that we're unaware of. Seems to me that if you find the camera elsewhere, you should buy it and cancel your current order. The dealer can't blame you for buying elsewhere what he couldn't get for you.

 

But I'm surprised that Mark remarks that if you pay a deposit you can't do that. To me, it's that part that doesn't make sense. I've paid deposit on merchandise but always with the understanding that the deposit is refundable if the dealer can't deliver in a timely fashion. Are the laws that different in the UK from ours in USA?

 

But then there's a plus for you: You get a better deal on the 30% lens savings than we do, even if we have a bit more freedom to shop for bodies?

 

--HC

[marknorton]

...but check on the status of any deposit before you go elsewhere...

[ho_co]

I got mine from a smaller dealer, no waiting.

Now, Wilfredo!!

You were in denial for months. It was pure accident that you found the camera.

 

That's different from someone who put his money down in October. Once you show your commitment, you're raw meat!

 

Hmm. May need to work on that metaphor...

[khanosu]

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I was on a local dealer’s list for a long time; if fact I was the only person on his list for an m8. I figured that he would at least get one soon enough. The dealer is quite big (but is small as far as Leica products are concerned) and is an authorized Leica dealer. I waited for months and he did not receive a single camera. A few weeks ago Leica told him that the will probably not get one until March. So I reclaimed my deposit and started checking B&H regularly. They got stock a few weeks ago and I pounced at it.

 

Furrukh

[farnz]

Thanks for the responses everyone and I guess my post was born of frustration rather than finding fault with Leica or my dealer. Like the ol' saying goes: "Lord, let me have patience, right &%£$"! NOW!"

 

Howard, regrettably Mark is correct: the deposit is clearly marked as non-refundable. When I recently inquired about deferring the purchase of the M8 and using the deposit towards a new R9/DMR kit (more expensive) from the same dealer, they held an impromptu frowning, lip-pursing, and sucking-air-through-the-teeth competition before they agreed.

 

Mark: interestingly, when I placed my M8 order my dealer advised me to order black because I would get it quicker. Thanks for the reminder abouth 31st.

 

I shall return to figuratively drumming my fingers on the table top with my chin resting in my palm while my gaze is trained on the letterbox like a sniper's rifle.

 

Pete.

[ho_co]

Howard, regrettably Mark is correct: the deposit is clearly marked as non-refundable. When I recently inquired about deferring the purchase of the M8 and using the deposit towards a new R9/DMR kit (more expensive) from the same dealer, they held an impromptu frowning, lip-pursing, and sucking-air-through-the-teeth competition before they agreed.

Pete--

Sorry, I had no right to speak to your dealer's style. But your description of their "impromptu frowning, lip-pursing, and sucking-air-through-the-teeth" session is beautiful. I burst out laughing because I've seen the display, but it's only fun when you're not involved.

 

I don't suppose "Absence makes the heart grow fonder" helps either...

 

Good luck. It's coming.

 

--HC

[wattsy]

I've been informed by my dealer, the main Leica dealer in London, that I'm unlikely to receive one before February, but most likely in March, even though I've been on the list since October.

 

It sounds like you are buying from Classic Camera. That's one of your problems. The other is that all UK Leica M8s are coming via Leica UK. That's your other (perhaps bigger) problem.

 

In your shoes I'd be inclined to get on a list in the US. Popflash or B&H seem to be good options.

[cocker]

 

Howard, regrettably Mark is correct: the deposit is clearly marked as non-refundable. When I recently inquired about deferring the purchase of the M8 and using the deposit towards a new R9/DMR kit (more expensive) from the same dealer, they held an impromptu frowning, lip-pursing, and sucking-air-through-the-teeth competition before they agreed.

 

 

Pete.

 

Sounds like one I know near the British Museum as well

[cocker]

Sounds like one I know near the British Museum as well

 

But if you want to have some fun with them you might want to point out to them that in the case of a contract under the Supply of Goods and Services Act 1982, if the date of performance (ie you getting the camera) is not fixed by a course of dealing between the parties(ie specified), a term will be implied that the contractor’s obligation is to complete within a reasonable time (Section 14(1)). You could give them notice that you regard the "reasonable time" as having passed!!

 

On the other hand you could just wait!!

[abrewer]

For better or worse, you've committed to a course of action by putting down a deposit. Other reports I've read here indicate you will be in for a fight to try and alter that course now.

 

Is the dealer subtly hinting you might advance your delivery by forking over more money to, as they say, grease the wheels of the machine?

 

That would be unethical at the very least, but you have to consider the possibility.

 

Thanks.

 

Allan

[Guest guy_mancuso]

It seems Leica wants to get at least 1 or 2 into all dealers hands regardless of standing orders, althhough for the larger dealers they do allocate more becuase of the standing orders that these dealers have waiting lists on. So it looks like they are trying to do 2 things at once here, which really is the way to go . Get all dealers at least a couple of these but give the larger percentage to the long wait listed folks. Remember some dealers do different things , some take deposits and some do not and some have wait lists and also some do not. B&H does not take pre-orders but the store itself has a large order in. So there is always a chance if you are watching and counting days from shipments from Germany that you can get a M8 without a pre-order. I have done this 4 times with B&H and new arrival camera's . But there is no guarntee once you hit the buy button that it went through. i lost 2 M8 orders becuase of a system glitch when many are trying to order at once. So sometimes it may not work easily. i still believe in orders with the small and medium size stores like Popflash , Camera West , Dale labs, Photo Village and other small dealers like Photomark here in my town. These folks are more intimate and the owners just seem to work with you better than the grocery store type. Not trying to cut the big dealers down like B&H which I do a lot of business with and was just there on Tuesday but the small dealers do support the local economy also.

[farnz]

Thanks once again for all your useful responses.

 

Wattsy: You might think that my dealer is the Classic Camera but I couldn't possibly comment. I didn't understand the implications behind your comment about the goods coming through Leica UK and I would be grateful if you would kindly enlighten me please?

 

I appreciate your suggestion to use a dealer in the Popflash or B&H but for a purchase of this magnitude it seems sensible to use a bricks-and-mortar dealer in case anything goes wrong and to use a dealer in the US would regrettably be too difficult to visit despite the typically excellent level of customer service.

 

Cocker: If I was travelling to my dealer by bus then the British Museum would be my stop. Thanks also for the heads up on the Goods & Services Act; I have a working knowledge but not to that level of detail. Incidentally I considered that I would have reasonable grounds for breaking the agreement because the nature of the goods have changed significantly since I placed my deposit. IR filters are now necessary for colour photography, although I feel sure you can understand that I'd be reluctant to use this avenue unless I had to. (I've got no particular axe to grind with Leica on this issue.)

 

Guy: I deliberately sought out the major dealer because I didn't want to be part of a chain of dealers, where the smallest always has the smallest voice and therefore receives the last share or the left-overs, despite the prospect of more personal and therefore better customer service. Might have been a mistake.

 

I have to be slightly cynical and say that I'm probably just one of the many millions of victims of English customer service where the customer is treated as a minor nuisance to be ignored if possible and where many retailers seem happier if there were no customers so they could get on with the job of maximising profits.

[wattsy]

I didn't understand the implications behind your comment about the goods coming through Leica UK and I would be grateful if you would kindly enlighten me please?

 

I am increasingly of the opinion that Leica UK are little more than useless. I'd prefer it if UK dealers (especially good ones like RG Lewis, Robert White et al) could deal directly with Solms.

 

I appreciate your suggestion to use a dealer in the Popflash or B&H but for a purchase of this magnitude it seems sensible to use a bricks-and-mortar dealer in case anything goes wrong and to use a dealer in the US would regrettably be too difficult to visit despite the typically excellent level of customer service.

 

Solms (and Leica UK) will honour the two year warranty if you buy from an official US dealer. I'm not sure what extra the 'bricks-and-mortar' dealer in the UK will bring to the table. The only thing you might want to consider is that Leica UK are providing a passport warranty but this is (unusually) limited to only 12 months so it's not much to get excited about.

[earleygallery]

Have you ever considered what would happen to your deposit if the dealer went bust? Or simply decided to cease trading? Did you ask if the money is held in a separate client account? Did you establish what the criteria was in the event of a problem or delay?

 

I work in credit risk and am amazed at how people are prepared to deposit significant sums of money purely on trust. I think you might have some protection if the deposit was made by credit card but even then I'd be very wary.

[johnll]

I was in a dealer near the British Museum yesterday and they had a black M8 on display "just came in this morning", but I assume it was spoken for, because the duty manager told me that if I ordered one he expected I'd get it by April. I only plan to get one when I'm entirely certain the "issues" are resolved.

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[matt736]

We are all waiting for the next deliveries from Solms here in the UK.

 

My dealer actually said that he feels that the Leica Premier Dealers ,which he is one,are getting are really bad treatment from Leica UK,what with no information for his customers and the latest offer of a 30% discount on a lens direct from Solms for the early M8 purchasers, is leaving him feeling he has been cut off from them.

 

The US is doing really well with B&H photo actually showing silver M8s in stock as of this morning.I mean stock actually sitting unsold in a dealer,we will probably have to wait a good 12 months before we see that here in the UK,

 

Cheers

Matthew.

[jrc]

I've shopped at camera stores around the British Museum (and also walking-stick stores for a couple of infirm relatives who like British canes, also around the British museum) and it has occurred to me that Brits have retail probems because they're too polite. A transaction is not just a business deal, it's also some kind of social relationship, and pressing too hard on somebody in an awkward or embarrassing position (i.e., has no stock) is simply bad form; pushing too hard would force a 'friend' to admit to shortcomings. But they have great stores; before Foyles got sold, I used to stay at a hotel in Seven Dials simply because it was easy to walk to Foyles and the other Charing Cross bookstores. (Next best bookstores, I think, are in NY.) The camera store that may or may not be around the British Museum is actually more like an American jewelery store than an American camera store; I'd stand outside and press my nose to the windows, looking at the jewels inside.

 

In the States, and in Germany and even France, it seems to me, being out of stock is not an embarrassment, it's just life; the customer goes somewhere else with no hard feelings. (Though French shop girls can be unbelievably bitchy; French shop guys tend to think that they're incipient rock stars, and if you treat them that way, everything is cool.)

 

An Israeli friend once told me that he couldn't stand shopping in the US because everybody was so patently and falsely cheerful. You go into a store, and it's all smiles and "Can I help you" and "Have a good day." He found the greeter at a WalMart to be a complete hypocrite. I suggested that he was taking it too literally; those were verbal forms, the result of training, and not entirely sincere (or maybe they are sincere, but they're not necessarily goals toward which the salespeople are willing to work very hard.)

 

In Israel, on the other hand, half the shop people treat you as though you're an imposition -- they don't like their jobs, they know that they're minimum wage salesmen, they're not going any place in their careers...and they behave like that. Why should they be polite for 10 shekels an hour? After you get used to it, it's pretty entertaining.

 

In most Arab shops, in my experience, you're treated like an old friend, as long as you're not in a hard tourist area. Not having stock is just a condition of the world; nobody's embarrassed, here, have a cup of coffee. Or, if they do have stock, the entire family helps you buy it. It's great.

 

I once brought an Hermes scarf at a store in Munich for a blond women. The salesman had to know her precise level of blondness, and precise eye-color, picked out on a variety of clerks and bystanders, before he could even approach a recommendation; the whole transaction took 45 minutes and I was told later by the recipient that the colors were perfect.

 

Everytime I've had to go shopping in Italy, it's been pretty enjoyable. I think the Italians have life figured out; but I've mostly gone shopping for food, though I have bought a couple of pairs of gloves for friends. I think In Italy there might be a cultural recognition, not shared further north, that it's not really necessary that something (like camera delivery) get done this very instant; the world will go on whatever happens.

 

JC