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The M10 or a new camera line? [Merged]


batmax

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I'm reading a lot of things about the new Evil cameras and I was thinking if in the future

leica can think to build an Evil M 10 .

It will be interesting to have a such as camera with full frame 18 Mp, interchangeable lenses

with M mount, electronic right focus confirmation and live view plus video 1080 P.

What do you think about this ?

 

Max

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With the ever growing sensor sizer it would be "easy" to make a larger than FF EVIL and only use the FF part of the sensor for the image = > ability to look outside the frame.

 

Whether any camera designer would actually do this is another matter.

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With the ever growing sensor sizer it would be "easy" to make a larger than FF EVIL and only use the FF part of the sensor for the image = > ability to look outside the frame.

 

Assuming the image circle of the lens was large enough to cover a sufficient area of course - plus the problem in marketing a camera where not all of the sensor was used to take photographs.

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True but that part of the lens image is probably good enough for framing even if you have intensity & color vignetting.

 

Edit: and the adventurous could tell the camera to write the whole sensor info and start tinkering with cornerfix etc. => M10 - MF mode.

Edited by SJP
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I'm reading a lot of things about the new Evil cameras and I was thinking if in the future

leica can think to build an Evil M 10 .

It will be interesting to have a such as camera with full frame 18 Mp, interchangeable lenses

with M mount, electronic right focus confirmation and live view plus video 1080 P.

What do you think about this ?

 

No no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no...

 

We have been here SO many times before!

 

By all means have a consumer digicam that takes M lenses, but keep all this garbage out of an M10.

 

Regards,

 

Bill

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To that special question I say NO, because M stands for "Messsucher" and that means simply: Range Finder. So there CANNOT be an M10 without a classic rangefinder, otherwise you should name it different.

 

But the idea of another fullframe camera with EVIL is amazing and I think Leica should built a camera like that. If they will not make such a camera, they will slumber one more time a wide spread trend in photography which was the reason that Leica cameras are now niche products! We know in the 60s Leica was bigger then Canon....good old times. SLR, Autofocus, digital photography, most of this was ignored or forced (too) late.

 

It seems to be, that now, Leica wakes up. It is necessary to stay alive on the market. Today a good name and know how in optics is not all. Others learn quickly. And young customers do not look on tradition. If someone with no big name can make an asperic lens for half the price - the customer will buy it.

 

Sure Leica should remain on the high quality level and not go to wide massproduction cheap cameras, but Leica should have a HiEnd solution for every way of taking photograph: S2 in the middle format, and M9 in the range finder cameras are outstanding good answers so far, and: a new EVIL could be a late but heavy answer to Panasonics/Olympus µFT and Samsungs NX10 (and all the others which may come, like SONY). That Leica EVIL Camera will maybe not compatible for M-Lenses but for R-Lenses and finally be the often mentioned "adequarte solution" for former R-users. At same time it will have new lenses constructed for that EVIL. I hope to see a camera as a prototype on the Photokina 2010.

 

But beside all that, I think on the long term Leica need a DSLR also. With the S2 so many experience was made, that it should be possible to build up a new "R-like" Top-Camera for a price which is in the region of a Canon EOS-1Ds Mark III?

 

No one thought that Leica could be able to built an S2 from scratch. Looking to a DSLR camera now or maybe in 2 years I say "yes, they can" ;)

Edited by Digitom
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Definitely don't want an electronic viewfinder but that's not to say some elements of what you see couldn't be implemented electronically - frame lines, focus confirmation - without spoiling the M concept.

 

That said, Leica continue to wheel out the same 50+ year-old design and it is most definitely not beyond improvement. I'd like to see them focus on the M's USP and come up with a new design which addresses the limitations of the existing finder. Variable magnification, adjustable diopter and improved eye comfort would do me fine.

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Guest BigSplash

I am struggling to think how an EVIL technology would give me any improvement in image, or ease of use for lenses in the 18mm to 90mm category, which is what I use most of the time. If I compare the M camera to any DSLR competitor (DSLR seems to be the only really high end cameras with interchangeable lenses) then I see that the M has these advantages:

  • Its much smaller and more easy to handle
  • It is quieter and therefore discrete.
  • Focussing accuracy is better (theoretically) than a DSLR below 90mm and in poor light.
  • Continuous mode should be faster than a DSLR (as there is no mirror to move) however apparently for some reason this is not the case when compared to best Canon and Nikon models. I do not know why.
  • It is easy to fit a 21mm, TriElmar 90mm and a M8 body in a small case...try that with a DSLR where the lenses need to be physically bigger and have motors on them.
  • There is less to go wrong on a M compared to a DSLR so in theory if Leica build them right they should be more reliable and rugged. (Shutter hardware issues suggest that Leica should look at the internal linkages perhaps?)
  • There is a wide range of fast Prime lenses available that are not offered by Nikon and Canon.
  • The CMOS sensor seems just fine to my eyes and the results are more like film than what I have seen from Nikon and Canon. An EVIL solution suggests moving to CMOS and if that degrades the image quality due to the need for an antialiasing filter or whatever I would not be pleased.

Unfortunately what I cannot do with my M8 used with today's Leica offer is Macro and Telephoto. and that is were I would be possibly attracted to an EVIL solution. However Macro is only about 10 to 20% of what I do and I today use a Visoflex with bellows, despite the usual negative comments I get whenever I mention that here.

 

I would like to see Leica address this niche within the context of a M camera and by applying latest technology.....how they do it does not matter to me. I would like to see some Leica lenses being offered with detachable lens heads for use on a bellows as was once the case.

 

Frankly if Leica introduced a new generation Visoflex with built in light metering, slimmer size, quieter mirror mechanism better ground glass screen, that complimented the M8/9 I am sure they would sell "some".

I also believe that it would return Leica to being a true system camera offering and would keep the obvious strengths of a M unchanged.

 

If this new Viso offered Autofocus, and Auto exposure and some lenses were made available including a zoom I could see it would widen significantly the capabilities of a Leica. I suspect that the development cost would be trivial compared to a M9 or S2 or X1...

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Frankly if...

 

...is it Groundhog Day already?

 

...If this new Viso offered Autofocus, and Auto exposure and some lenses were made available including a zoom I could see it would widen significantly the capabilities of a Leica. I suspect that the development cost would be trivial compared to a M9 or S2 or X1...

 

...yeh riiiight...

Edited by bill
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Definitely don't want an electronic viewfinder but that's not to say some elements of what you see couldn't be implemented electronically - frame lines, focus confirmation - without spoiling the M concept.

 

That said, Leica continue to wheel out the same 50+ year-old design and it is most definitely not beyond improvement. I'd like to see them focus on the M's USP and come up with a new design which addresses the limitations of the existing finder. Variable magnification, adjustable diopter and improved eye comfort would do me fine.

 

Yup.

 

Regards,

 

Bill

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Wow. Novel question. Lets call it M10.GF-1.

 

Leica could team with Panasonic, have them do the electronics and build it and all Leica would have to do is design the lenses for it. You buy it and I'll struggle along with the regular old version of the new M10 with all my old Leica glass. :D

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I'm reading a lot of things about the new Evil cameras and I was thinking if in the future

leica can think to build an Evil M 10 .

It will be interesting to have a such as camera with full frame 18 Mp, interchangeable lenses

with M mount, electronic right focus confirmation and live view plus video 1080 P.

What do you think about this ?

 

Max

 

No thanks. Really, give mine to someone else. Don't want to stick my nose into something... this evil.

Leica's always been on evolution rather than revolution. The M system is built around an optical/mechanical rangefinder. I see no use for an electronic focus confirmation. What are eyes supposed for? I battled several times with the autofocus of my ex Nikon D300 which autofocused on what it wanted rather than focusing on what I wanted. Also, why do I have to bother with liveview when the viewfinder is visible all the time and much more luminous than any camera's one? Finally who needs video 1080P in a camera? If I ever wanted to make videos I'd buy a specific tool for the task.

The way I see it, M8 & 9 just bridged M philosophy into modern digital world and Leitz did that remarkably well. I have digital files out of a tool whose interface I grew familiar with in the past. All commands are where they're supposed to be. I can use lenses of 80 years ago if I please so to do. Nothing distracting, nothing confusing. I couldn't ask for more because I don't need more. If I ever did I'd buy something else.

If it were ever for me, M10 would just have more pixels, but not exaggerately so, just the bare minimum to keep the pace with photo editors' next requirements. It would be available in real chrome, either black or white, not painted. And it would be real silent, as the older Ms were. But that's just me.

 

Regards,

Bruno

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I'm reading a lot of things about the new Evil cameras and I was thinking if in the future

leica can think to build an Evil M 10 .

It will be interesting to have a such as camera with full frame 18 Mp, interchangeable lenses

with M mount, electronic right focus confirmation and live view plus video 1080 P.

What do you think about this ?

 

Max

 

These threads always end up the same way; the point gets lost...

 

Conservative naysayers will do anything to prevent the original M-design from being changed. I tend to agree with them. Let the M be the M. There'll be a market for the M rangefinder for years and years to come, I'm sure. The M10 or later M's may or may not have modern features like the ones Mark suggests.

 

Georg tried to start an interesting discussion about a possibly upcoming Leica EVIL over at the German forum, but unfortunately the thread soon ended in the usual rant about Leica abandoning the R-Line.

 

http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/digitalforum/120029-high-end-digital-made-germany.html

 

Now as for the EVIL (or I believe the newest term is interchangeable lens camera) I'm eagerly awaiting a really good one. I like the idea of getting rid of the mirror because the camera will become lighter, smaller, quieter. Better lens design (no retro focus) and no or less mechanical parts.

 

I'd want:

 

Outstanding glass, Leica M quality

Fast and silent AF

Weather sealed, rugged body and lenses

Easily controlled wireless flash system

FF 25-35 MP

(pixel binning for) good high ISO

Large DR

Fast processor

The possibility to use M and R glass with an adapter in anticipation of a complete line of AF lenses.

 

For emotional reasons I want this camera to be a Leica. If my favorite brand with a long standing tradition in innovative reportage camera design doesn't do it, other companies will.

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If you want a tricked-up electronics marvel, buy a Japanese camera. Please let an M be an M, as it has been since 1954. The advances snce 1954, internal meter and auto exposure, can be ignored if the user cares too. Apparently the long line of waiting M9 buyers agrees.

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Just add video please! Leica will triple sales if video 1080/24p if implemented, because of videogaphers know the quality of leica glass. Ok, Leica will loose some of the hardcore nuts that hate technological improvements.

 

EGL, I hate to admit it, but I was just thinking about this the other day. Assuming that CMOS is going to be a given someday(?), then it got me to thinking about what the Nocti would look like in a movie under some real dim light with razor sharp DOF on some starlet. It looked really cool with my 5D2 and f2.8 across the room at night at 70mm. Imagine how rich the color would be with the M10 and the Nocti or the 75 Cron or the 21 Lux. I think you are right about it being desirable for some videographer. I admit, I'd play with it.

 

Bill, you crack me up. Love Groundhog Day.

Edited by RickLeica
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