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16 minutes ago, Rona!d said:

I was wondering where the 900 kg come from. Thought they were MUCH lighter. Massimo Guerra made a "hill climb" G12 with 580 kg (Lotus twin cam) and that I thought is heavy.

FWIW (this IS the internet after all!) this page also lists weight as being 580kg;

http://www.euronetworks.co.jp/new.car/ginetta/g12.htm

Philip.

EDIT : It lists height as being 1050mm = 41.3" but I suppose things such as a 'Gurney Bubble' and suchlike might play a part?

Edited by pippy
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I was going to wait a while, but it seems more than one have taken the time to pursue the story behind this fascinating and remarkable automobile & are aware of the identity of this thing so I think it's time to reveal all. It's the 1935 Hoffman 8X..............and as indicated, it's the only one ever made. The curious thing about this car is that even though it wasn't officially commissioned by one of the big manufacturers there seems to have been enough money available to develop a on

Not a 450, 150, 200 or 300 - rarer than those, with only two original factory cars made, although some have been cobbled together later. Given that you can't measure the engine size from my photo and John is going away I will disclose that it is a 250S. This was the first car to use the new (or at least much revised) four cylinder engine planned for the forthcoming T series birdcage models. The idea was to produce a car with the straight line performance of the 300S but with the lighter and torq

Thanks, Ronald. I found the 906 to be a delightful car, one you didn't so much drive, but rather would "think" around curves, so precise and light and predictable is the handling. It's pointless to try to debate whether it was wise to drive it on the street, since it was simply not made for 'grocery getting' and it's foolish to complain that it's  not suitable for that function, but take it on a brief, vigorous run on a beautiful Saturday morning and it'll change forever your outlook of what a s

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580 kg + 90 kg (mid 50s business man owner) driver + 25 kg helmet/fireproof racing suit/boots + 40 kg gasoline + 5 kg sponsor stickers + 1,5 kg pit radio/transponder + .... + ... 😉

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Even my road legal 3.3L 911 RSR is only 975kg and that is with a steel floorpan, some of the panels and frame, although admittedly my magnesium crankcase, titanium engine parts and gearbox casing are very light  . Maybe that was the V8 version of the G12. Here is your next one. 

Wilson

 

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vor 4 Stunden schrieb Rona!d:

580 kg + 90 kg (mid 50s business man owner) driver + 25 kg helmet/fireproof racing suit/boots + 40 kg gasoline + 5 kg sponsor stickers + 1,5 kg pit radio/transponder + .... + ... 😉

That reminds me of a conversation that I overheard in the paddock of the Red Bull Ring in Austria: one driver (rather 100 than 90 kg) told the other that he spent 10k on reducing the weight of his car a few kg. The other replied: „It would have been cheaper and healthier, if YOU had lost some weight“.

 

 

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vor 1 Stunde schrieb a.j.z:

That reminds me of a conversation that I overheard in the paddock of the Red Bull Ring in Austria: one driver (rather 100 than 90 kg) told the other that he spent 10k on reducing the weight of his car a few kg. The other replied: „It would have been cheaper and healthier, if YOU had lost some weight“.

 

 

Had that discussion with a highend bicycle fanatic who complained about my heavy 1990s old school MTB.

He told me how much saving 1 kg on his bicycle cost him and I replied that he could have saved a fortune with riding a good old heavy CrMo-frame on expanded evening tours instead to loose weight.

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Posted (edited)

Front mounted water-cooled engine, American made Stewart-Warner instruments and fire system, what looks like a fiberglass body: a Devin?

Edited by m410
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An aluminium alloy body and a British fire system (Lifeline). I think the instruments may have been replaced from the originals at some point all except the chronometric rev-counter, which from memory is original, of the same nationality as the car and not Stewart Warner. Not a Devon. I believe it arrived at its first owner in South America, in a slightly unfinished state and that may be where the S-W instruments were fitted. 

Wilson

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2 hours ago, wlaidlaw said:

Very close John. Correct make and series but wrong version. Much rarer than the 200S. 

Wilson

In that case, it just about has to be a Maserati 450S, since the 200S & the 300S were made in similar numbers of about 28 -30 cars, vs.only nine of the 450S.

PS:  vcv

Not to be presumptuous, but if that happens to be correct, would someone else please be good enough to post the next one since I'm leaving for a 10-day photo safari to Yellowstone in the morning.

JZG

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Posted (edited)

Not a 450, 150, 200 or 300 - rarer than those, with only two original factory cars made, although some have been cobbled together later. Given that you can't measure the engine size from my photo and John is going away I will disclose that it is a 250S. This was the first car to use the new (or at least much revised) four cylinder engine planned for the forthcoming T series birdcage models. The idea was to produce a car with the straight line performance of the 300S but with the lighter and torquier 4 rather than 6 cylinder engine, more agile for twisty circuits. The 300S is quite tricky to drive with quite strong initial understeer, which very rapidly changes to roll oversteer, so rather like an early 911, you have to "bung" it into a corner under trail braking to overcome the understeer and then apply enough throttle to put it into a 4 wheel drift. Fine when the corner is of steady radius but very difficult on a tightening radius corner or on a damp track. The 250S is a much more balanced car with very fine handling. Its weak point is the brakes. These are three leading shoe drums and not really big enough for its performance. For some reason, no matter what you do to them, they are always very long travel and spongey. I find it a quite difficult car to drive as the brake pedal is about 7 inches (17cm) above the accelerator and my right leg, with three metal prostheses is neither agile enough, nor strong enough, to work the brakes properly and heel and toeing is close to impossible. They still fade quite badly, albeit not as badly as the heavier 300 or 450S cars, so you have to ration your braking out over the laps of a race. I never really got on with this car but my brother was quite successful in it. I much preferred the T61 Birdcage, especially with the smaller 2 litre engine, which has as near perfect handling as any front engine car can have and excellent disc brakes. 

This 250S car was one of two built in 1957 but not completed, as Maserati, as usual, was in severe financial straights. The cost of developing the 2.5L V12 F1 engine, had been very high and the effort to update the 6 cylinder 250F, with the wide angle cylinder head and low line angled drive train, had also been costly, although successful. The V12 ended up very overweight and barely any more powerful than the improved DOHC 6. Maserati did win both the driver's championship with Fangio and the constructors championship but the coffers were empty. Fangio had not been paid since mid-season. In the end Fangio was offered the 250S in lieu of unpaid salary and very reluctantly accepted. He was not amused when it arrived in Buenos Aires missing such desirable features like gearbox internals and in disgust, gave it to his manager. The gearbox is another weak point on the car, as in an effort to keep it very light (and probably cheap), it uses the box from the 2 litre 200S, rather than the more robust and expensive gearbox from the 250F/300S. When we used to race this car, we always carried a spare gearbox with us and had another spare away being repaired. There were probably more weld and patches on the gearbox casing than original metal. 

To my mind this is the prettiest of all 1950's sports racing cars. These were taken at the Guadix circuit near Grenada on a test day. This is a great test circuit as it has very extensive run off areas, to avoid car damage. Just as well, as all of us visited the gravel traps at one point in the Ferrari 312PB, with its sticking throttle. 

Wilson

 

 

Edited by wlaidlaw
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The majority of race cars of most nationalities are right hand drive, because most race circuits are clockwise with a predominance of right hand bends. Right hand drive gives a more favourable weight distribution and sight lines to spot apex clipping points. Also remember that up until 1944, the rule of the road in Italy was totally chaotic. it varied from drive on the  right to drive on the left, from state to state and in some places the state was drive on the left (UK style) in the countryside, whereas the larger cities were drive on the right (US Style). The Italians developed a pragmatic solution - they drove in the middle of the road.

The US troops unlike the local population could not manage this system at all and the accident rate was horrendous. The US military government therefore imposed drive on the right for all the areas where they had control. This persisted after the end of the war but many Italian manufacturers continued to make mostly or entirely right hand drive cars. You will find that most Ferraris, other than those being exported to the USA, were right hand drive up to the mid 1950's as were Lancias.

I bought a rather battered Italian registered 1955 375MM Ferrari at an auction in Naples in 1964, for £600. It was right hand drive. Admittedly that was a roofless race car. I do wish I had kept it but sadly I sold it 5 months later in London for just £400. It would be worth about £7 million now, if fully restored. 

Wilson

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Am 3.6.2021 um 08:27 schrieb wlaidlaw:

 Its weak point is the brakes. They still fade quite badly, albeit not as badly as the heavier 300 or 450S cars, so you have to ration your braking out over the laps of a race.

Wilson when I had two new Maserati models for test drives on the hired tourist free Nordschleife/Nürburgring a couple of years ago I had some fun even with modern disc brakes. Maybe the driver before me had a different idea of warm up laps and "warmed up" the brakes instead of the rubber but maybe also the brakes weren´t perfect. I had some unexpected interesting moments I never had before in other cars. When I told that to a works engineer he gave me another "fresh" car which was better but not as much as to be expected. Glad I knew how to drive classic cars and how to save brakes.

I fully agree with you how beautiful your riddle car is!

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