To crop or not to crop.....

[aesop]

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...too much compression, Jaap - should have gotten closer to the subject with your 35 Summicron. Still, next time, huh?

[Jeff S]

...there is not much principally different in cropping down reality by choosing a longer focal length than by cutting off edges in the darkroom/computer.

 

Exactly. And further, by the time it takes to change to a longer focal length, the intended scene may be long gone. Then the PP computer challenge is immense indeed.

 

Jeff

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[glacierparkmagazine]

Here's an entire interview with Bresson:

 

Charlie Rose - A conversation with Henri Cartier-Bresson

 

Crank up the volume. The audio is awful.

[jaapv]

Exactly. And further, by the time it takes to change to a longer focal length, the intended scene may be long gone. Then the PP computer challenge is immense indeed.

 

Jeff

Right. The frame of the scene the photographer wishes to show is his artistic choice. The point of time at which the choice is made and the method by which the choice is made are of no ethical relevance.

[SJP]

Sometimes it is crop or be eaten.. M8, 800 mm lens.

 

Interestingly the flies are sharper than the lion:D

[holmes]

I've posted a previous response but something 'clicked' in my advanced dementia. Some one quoted Capa, who said, "is you have to crop you're not close enough". In most respects that's true. However there, is a word called 'prudence'. Some times it is simply not possible to get your physical body on the line of the shot. I would love to know the distance of Capa from the Loyalist solider. You can say he framed the photo through his viewfinder and everything became part of the print. From the rock covered ground. To the solider wearing oxfords(?). So this photo reflects Capa on the Franco side to get this shot. Ah well we will never know since the two principles are dead.

[earleygallery]

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I also think that Capa was talking metaphorically about being 'close' to the subject.

[jaapv]

Interestingly the flies are sharper than the lion:D

Hmmm... These lenses have considerable CFA - maybe I should have used the Summicron 35 indeed.....

[peter_n]

I also think that Capa was talking metaphorically about being 'close' to the subject.

Yes he was talking about emotional distance I think. An empathy or connection with subjects or scenes. Edouard Boubat was close; warm and compassionate, but HCB was remote; cool and disconnected.

[lars_bergquist]

Right. The frame of the scene the photographer wishes to show is his artistic choice. The point of time at which the choice is made and the method by which the choice is made are of no ethical relevance.

Agree, in spades!

 

The old man with the scissors

[spylaw4]

Right. The frame of the scene the photographer wishes to show is his artistic choice. The point of time at which the choice is made and the method by which the choice is made are of no ethical relevance.

 

Elegantly put, Jaap, and absolutely correct.

[250swb]

Capa is quoted as saying 'if your pictures aren't good enough you aren't close enough', which is not about cropping, its about seeing the whites of their eyes, so to speak. Its in the same genre as 'f/8 and be there'. Both quotes are about being in the right place at the right time, and in the action rather than on the edge of the action.

 

Steve

[Michael Hiles]

Right. The frame of the scene the photographer wishes to show is his artistic choice. The point of time at which the choice is made and the method by which the choice is made are of no ethical relevance.

 

Quite right. IMO. The "no crop" regime for me is a mental discipline. Always personal and significant only to me.

[delander †]

Right. The frame of the scene the photographer wishes to show is his artistic choice. The point of time at which the choice is made and the method by which the choice is made are of no ethical relevance.

 

 

Surely it is more skilful to frame the picture properly when it is taken than to sit at a computer and crop away stuff?

 

Should not that extra degree of skill or 'satisfaction' be recognised in some way.

 

A crop is better than nothing but not as good as properly framed original and it cant be printed to the same size. I'm reading a lot of justification of bad practice here.

 

Jeff

[giordano]

Surely it is more skilful to frame the picture properly when it is taken than to sit at a computer and crop away stuff?

 

Should not that extra degree of skill or 'satisfaction' be recognised in some way.

 

"Framing the picture properly" implies getting two things right: viewpoint (and hence perspective) and framing (what you include and what you exclude). Often there will be occasions when you can't get both of them just so without either cropping or using a zoom lens. Of course there's skill in making the best compromise if you only have a prime lens and don't want to crop - but that's just making the best of self-imposed limitations and not IMHO especially praiseworthy.

 

A crop is better than nothing but not as good as properly framed original and it cant be printed to the same size. I'm reading a lot of justification of bad practice here.

 

I kind of agree with you about bad practice and limited print quality when it's a matter of hunting through an image looking for "a picture" somewhere in some part of it - and losing 80% or more of the pixels in the process. But even that is standard practice and IMHO perfectly justified in news and reportage work.

 

But I absolutely disagree when it comes to cropping in order to frame the picture that one intended to capture. In that case the print size argument is irrelevant: if after cropping there won't be enough pixels for the size of print you want to be able to make, you shouldn't have taken the shot in the first place.

[delander †]

If we did not all 'actually know' that there is more skill in properly framing the picture at the point of taking it than in cropping later then we would not be having this extended conversation.

 

In my mind the uncropped picture is the more worthy enterprise and this should be recognised even though one can easily crop 6mp out of 18 or 15mp out of 45 etc.

 

Jeff

[Jeff S]

If we did not all 'actually know' that there is more skill in properly framing the picture at the point of taking it than in cropping later then we would not be having this extended conversation.

 

Wrong in many cases, with examples given above.

 

...fast moving scenes, when lens change is impossible, that would otherwise be gone in an instant (and which lesser skilled photographers wouldn't even see or react to timely)

 

...images calling for a different aspect ratio (which lesser skilled photographers might not even recognize)

 

...deliberate wide framing and camera leveling, to prevent converging verticals (which means skill is demanded at the time of capture rather than using Photoshop perspective tools after the fact...or enlarger tilting, as in the film days...and for which lesser skilled photographers might not even bother)

 

...objects blocking the relevant scene, which cannot be avoided (see HCB fence...guess this means lack of skill on his part )

 

etc, etc, etc.

 

Jeff (from one Jeff to another)

[Fotomiguel]

If you are shooting weddings the final print may be the final goal.

If you are shooting landscapes even a photo merge may be a good solution.

But if you shoot street photography or reportage, the instant and the eye of the photographer makes photography a kind of challenge. The original frame should be close to the final result. A good shot is a reward of the perseverance and the efforts of the photographer. After a good shot one have a kind of climax but at the same time a kind of sadness because you know that surely will be a long way until the next good shot arrives. The previos intention, the courage of getting close, the intuition of something is going to happen, the instant that goes by so quick. All these things make street photography very special.

Depending of what kind of photography you are practicing, the original shot is more important or less.

[pop]

If we did not all 'actually know' that there is more skill in properly framing the picture at the point of taking it than in cropping later then we would not be having this extended conversation.

 

In my mind the uncropped picture is the more worthy enterprise and this should be recognised even though one can easily crop 6mp out of 18 or 15mp out of 45 etc.

 

Jeff

 

I acknowledge that it is more satisfying for the photographer to have accomplished a task which takes more skills. However, that's purely subjective. Since many here are amateurs who take some pride in their skills, I find that perfectly acceptable.

 

However.

 

The circumstances which led to the finished picture do not alter the "value" of the picture in the eyes of the beholder. Otherwise, we'd all be involved in contests of pictures taken while standing on one leg or on the head, that presumably being more difficult than taking a picture while standing on two legs.

 

Being somewhat uncertain about my own photographic skills, I do not even attempt very convincingly taking shots which I can publish entirely without any cropping. If I suceed, fine. In most cases, however, I let myself be tempted to take the safe route. That would mean with a rangefinder to leave some margin for parallax. It does not mean, however, discarding more than 80 percent of the image.

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[SJP]

If we did not all 'actually know' that there is more skill in properly framing the picture at the point of taking it than in cropping later then we would not be having this extended conversation.

 

In my mind the uncropped picture is the more worthy enterprise and this should be recognised even though one can easily crop 6mp out of 18 or 15mp out of 45 etc.

 

Jeff

Agreed, I am happier with straight out of camera (handheld, non cropped or rotated) pictures like the one below, but if I need to crop a picture for some reason this is fine with me. It is my brain that takes the pictures not my hands or my camera.

Edited April 30, 2010 by SJP