Don't you think we could stop yelling at Leica?

[gdb]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

Gentlemen,

 

Couldn't we try to be less angry towards Leica?

 

Like many of us, I have been reading much about the problems many of you have with the M8. I have also been reading many documents about Leica's efforts to solve these problems as quickly as possible. Personnaly, I am not attracted by the M line, so what I say is purely disinterested. Still, the camera gives beautiful pictures.

 

But remember: we have been waiting for the DMR for almost two years, and the delay of this wonderful tool has been very criticized by many. Besides the very small drawback of the color of the pictures on the DMR's monitor, who can really complain about the quality of the pictures it gives? I can tell you that I miss my stolen DMR very badly, and can't afford another one right now. But I will not get any other DSLR, even the 5D because I know I won't have the same pleasure with their results.

 

In order not to make people wait too long for the M8, and to avoid the turmoil of the delivering of the DMR, Leica made its best to deliver the M8 at the time they promised, ie the Photokina. And they succeeded.

 

Do you know of any photographic brand that came to the digital world so late, without the japanese ability of investment, and who produced TWO completely different digital photographic systems without sacrifying their legendary image quality in such a short time ? Remember that a few years ago, a digital M was said to be impossible to achieve...

 

Do you know of any computer software that runs without a bug? People who yell at Mr Gate's Windows still use his software and achieve very difficult tasks with it, probably including the development of the M8 and DMR's software. Why should it be different for a much smaller company like Leica, who makes such sophisticated products?

 

I feel that in criticizing them as so many people do, we do not help them, but we only do them much harm by spoiling their "image de marque". We also contribute to refraining possible new customers from buying their products. And if they don't sell, you know what it means...

 

Why don't we all of us hold our hands together and send them more support? Why don't we show them our solidarity and thank them for the wonderful work they make? the M8 problems WILL be solved very soon, and once they are solved all this will be soon forgotten. But the stains on their image could take longer to vanish. This would be very bad for them, and it would OUR fault.

 

So let us wish them a happy Christmas and a happy New years. Let us tell them we do trust them and need them to carry on in the difficult path they take. Don't forget that they work very hard, only for our pleasure.

 

My best greetings for every one of this forum and for those you care for.

 

Very sincerely

Gérard

[Advertisement]

The Leica Q3 is available for pre-order at B&H Photo Video and Adorama

[Guest Arias]

I agree completely with you!

 

Best regards

H.

[farnz]

Well said, Gerard, and I totally agree.

 

Pete.

[johnbuckley]

Gerard - this thread will soon pick up negative momentum, as those who are angry, and disappointed, will jump in, or so I would wager.

 

But your thoughts match my own, and I'm glad you have expressed them.

 

I wish the M8 had arrived perfect. But I am so glad it arrived. I have had mine for roughly seven weeks. I think it is glorious. Yes, fix the bugs. Yes, Leica's handling of its customer communications has been imperfect. But by God, they delivered what only a few years ago was considered an impossibility: a digital rangefinder on which we can use our M lenses.

 

The RD-1 showed it could be done. But the M8's compact size, its performance, all say to me that we have a winner on our hands, once, of course, some bugs are worked out.

 

Let us, as you have said, offer Leica some appreciation and praise for the big thing they have done.

[Paul_S]

Thank you Gérard for bringing this up. I fully agree with you. I have learned that positive encouragement is more productive.

 

I have my M8 for only a few days now and it is such a joy to work with. I am fully confident that Leica, who has made such an incredible well though-out product, will continue their effort in fulfilling what is not perfect yet. Give them time to do the job right. There awareness is very high already.

 

Even more, in the end they need us - the users - for feedback. This forum is a great way to help. Let's continue to use it that way and in a constructive manner (which often takes place already).

 

My opinion on the M8: it balances between a professional tool (great to work with), a fantastic toy (love to play with) and a good companion (pleasure to take with you wherever you go). I think that is a great achievement for this kind of product for which I am grateful to be able to posses one.

[jlancasterd]

Thanks Gérard - we certainly need the voice of reasoned sanity to counteract the overblown hysteria evident in some of the postings on the group.

 

I'm still saving up for my M8 - in the meantime I appreciate my R8+DMR in just the way you describe. After suffering the limitations of the Fuji S1 and S3 it is a pleasure to use something that can be relied on to produce a good image in almost any conditions.

[scanner]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

It is not fine for the people with a less good M8 but I know that the people by Leitz

fight for the customers. We have been several times in Solms for a free Check up for all equipment and really, they are so helpfull and so friendly !!

Personaly I forgive them one or two or three or four mistakes or .... because we know and feel the love they have for the name leica !

 

greetings, Rob http://www.fotorobvantwoudt.nl

[stuny]

Gerard, my dear friend –

 

I am in complete agreement with you (which is normally the case in virtually all areas we’ve discussed). But I want to add two things.

 

1. Negativity is contagious. Anybody with an agenda against Leica (which could be as simple as envying those who can afford Leica) might quote the nay-sayers on the forum, and perhaps influence potential customers to go elsewhere.

 

2. In the field of service quality there is a rule of thumb: It normally takes two years AFTER completely fixing a widely known service quality issue before the general market perceives that it is no longer an issue. Therefore, if the relatively minor problems with the M8 were completely fixed by the end of 2006 it would be the end of 2008 before the market fully accepted that Leica had its act together with the M8.

 

We do not need our small but beloved marque damaged by over-zealous complainers.

 

Oops! That might start some more complaints.

[mwilliamsphotography]

Yeah, well it's a really terrible test camera, and all you Pollyannas know it!

 

Downright crap when shooting highly overexposed shots with my lens cap on. Every freaking' time I grossly underexpose an ISO 2500 shot of a pitch black wall and lift it 5 stops in processing it looks HORRIBLE !!!!!

 

But when I WANT those effects while shooting in the real world, the dumb thing just takes excellent photos. I am SOoooooo angry. I want something to complain about while sitting in front of the computer instead of taking photographs.

 

Merry Christmas from my M8 @ ISO 1250, and it's new best friend the 75 lux. As my friends at the Morgue say, "Have a cold on on me" : -)

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

[kidigital]

Strike up the X-mas band. I guess that I too will just have to make due to with my broke-down imperfect M8.

 

Kurt

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

[Jager]

In October, just a few days before the M8 was released, I posted this over on another forum.

 

"...One thing is certain: once the camera is officially released there will be an initial wave of disappointment and complaint across the internet. People will be complaining about soft images and too much noise and colors being off and banding when the 90mm nocticron is used to take pictures of the sun. People will be shooting light bulbs and brick walls and we'll be treated to more sad shots of people's living rooms (because they couldn't be bothered to go find a decent subject, lit by good light) than you can shake a stick at. If you listen to it all you'll think the M8 was the worst-designed piece of junk to ever come out of Europe. Look carefully, though, and amidst all that hue and cry you'll start to slowly see some amazing images begin to emerge..."

 

As has been noted by others, Leica's response to M8 issues stands in stark contrast to most other large camera companies. Nikon, even with all its vaunted financial and technical resources, obfuscated for months before addressing similar issues in the D200 (a fine camera, by the way). The much-discussed IR issue aside, most of the other issues affecting the M8 are the kinds of signal-processing challenges which manifest themselves in varying degrees with all digital cameras.

 

And by the way, Marc's pic is the exception that proves the rule. A shot in the living room can be artistic and beautiful!

[jonoslack]

Hi Gérard

 

What a sensible post - I agree with all of it.

What's interesting though is that, in the main, it seems to be those WITHOUT an M8 who are so angry about it all.

 

Anyway, it's party time, and we should all be partying:

 

M8 640 iso 1/30th 50mm 'cron

 

Happy Christmas Everyone

and may all your hangovers be little ones.

[drjon]

The M8 is a great camera; the roll-out bugs will be fixed and then it will be even greater. I posted this in November (prior to the blobs, banding and vettical stripe furore).

 

The M8 demonstrably suffers from IR contamination. This almost certainly arises from the use of a very thin glass cover in front of the sensor which provides insufficient blocking of the IR spectrum. Even in natural light, IR contamination can be an issue, but it is clearly a significant problem for those users requiring highly accurate colour rendition, especially under artificial lighting which normally contains relatively high concentrations in the IR spectrum.

 

Since nearly all real world objects reflect IR to a greater or lesser extent, dealing with the M8's IR contamination would require reducing the amount of the IR spectrum arriving at the sensor. I concur with those who believe that profiling or other software-related tweaks cannot provide an overall solution - Leica would be well advised to steer well clear of such solutions.

 

If I were Leica, I would not touch the sensor itself as, based on my own results and those I have seen posted on the web, they have a winning design here - this camera (using the M lenses) can produce wonderful pictures with that special Leica character. This leaves only two options, increase the IR blocking properties of the glass cover in front of the sensor, or mount an IR blocking filter in front of the lens. Neither of these two solutions should be an issue of principle for users - provided that transmission of light in the visible spectrum is completely unaffected.

 

Again, if I were Leica, I would not mess around with the glass cover; this could change the character and overall quality of the results currently seen from the camera which I for one like very much. This leaves only the use of filters in front of the lens. Such an approach has the advantage that those users who wish to take advanatage of the M8's IR sensitivity are free to do so.

 

I have no problem using filters on my lenses, I have always done so as do thousands of others; as I say, this should not be an issue of principle. However, I would expect Leica to provide M8 buyers with high quality IR cut filters at a discounted price and have such filters manufactured for Leica to Leica standards.

 

The only urgent firmware changes which I would suggest are those related to AWB - the M8 is easily disturbed under mixed lighting and the AWB does need improving - hardly something new for newly released digital cameras.

 

Leica have clearly made a mis-step primarily in marketing terms which, for a Company with their culture, they were bound to make sooner or later. I sincerly hope that they will not change their culture, there are precious few Companies left like Leica. They have made a mistake, but not one which will cause loss of life. The history of Leica and of photography is not about to be re-written because of the magenta issue.

 

Leica will survive this and, in the fullness of time, the M8 will surely take its place alongside the other legendary Leica cameras - as will the photographs which will be taken using this camera.

 

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

 

[kamilsukun]

Gérard,

 

I fully agree.

 

A small reminder: Please be careful. One month ago I started a thread with the word "Gentleman" and was severly attacked by a Lady in the forum. The thread was closed a little later.

 

Happy Holidays.

[rosuna]

I would like to see more pictures from the M8 and the 75 lux, please.

[jlancasterd]

Gerard,

 

I fully agree.

 

A small reminder: Please be careful. One month ago I started a thread with the word "Gentleman" and was severly attacked by a Lady in the forum. The thread was closed a little later.

 

Happy Holidays.

 

Ah! - but then its been almost entirely (if not completely) MEN who have been so voluble about the M8's 'failings'. ;)

[imagineitframed]

What great sentiments. I've been viewing this forum for over a month and am amazed at the negative opinions of many - even more amazed at the nasty attitude some portray.

 

I make about 50% of my income from my photography and have shot with both Canon and Nikon pro DSLRs and the RD1 as well as the M7. I think the M8 deserves a place at the top of the list and the employees who have contributed to bringing it to market have my sincere thanks.

[mwilliamsphotography]

"And by the way, Marc's pic is the exception that proves the rule. A shot in the living room can be artistic and beautiful!"

 

Actually Jeff, it was at a bar after filling the table with dead Heineken soldiers. 75mm f/1.4 @ 1/60th in the hands of a wobbly legged drunk : -)

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[hammam]

Yes, yes, yes, all this is very nice, and there is a lot of optimism.And self-righteousness as well. I want Leica to succeed, just like anybody. I am, after all, investing a small fortune in the M8. But I also want my M8 to work when I finally get it. However, censorship is rearing its ugly head here. First, I have never seen anybody «yelling» at Leica. I've seen people expressing their disappointment and, yes, sometimes their anger at having had to fork $4,500 for a defective product, but always in a controlled and polite way, if firmly. But what I've seen, moslty, is people reporting problems and bugs. And thank God they were there, and still are. Thank God they're not afraid to speak their mind. THIS IS what has forced Leica to react promptly and diligently, to call back defective cameras, to stop shipping what was basically a failure, and to seriously work on bugs. And NOW, maybe, we'll get our money's worth.

 

As has been said before, these people on this forum have acted as beta testers for Leica. I find it a bit easy to ask for leniency now that most problems have been ironed out thanks, in part, to these early loudmouths. Especially when you «are not attracted by the M line.»

 

The argument that criticizing Leica will prevent potential buyers to spend a fortune on the M8 is lame, to say the least. It amounts to saying: «Hush! Don't say a word. Even if YOU know. Let the poor suckers buy the bad product.»

 

Can you imagine what would've happened if no one had said anything on the Net?

 

I'm all for a little understanding, and a lot of support for Leica, and I'm against nastiness as well, but thank the loud-mouths, don't scold them.

[mwilliamsphotography]

I was one of the "loud mouths" Olivier, having blown the whistle on the IR issue the day after I got the camera which was one day after it was shipped in the US.

 

But having beat the horse to death, ground it up for dog food, fed it to the dog who pooped it out and fertilized the grass with it ... so the next horse could eat ... then beating THAT horse to death and continuing the cycle ad nausium ... seems excessive don't you think?

 

The question was shouldn't we stop and see what Leica does, NOT that we should never have.

 

BTW, I don't care if I have to use IR filters at all now ... I never argue with any method that delivers results like this.