Poll for Article - M8 Vertical Band

[steve_l]

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Marc-

When you say "medium" and "long" shutter speeds, were they all 1/30 or longer, so that noise reduction would have removed the band?

[DaveSee]

Dave,

 

I haven't drawn any conclusion at all yet but if people with first generation M8s are seeing this particular kind of vertical band also then I would like to hear from them as well. Just to be thorough, when you respond, please first describe which of the following applies to your camera. Obviously, describing your firmware version isn't enough information.

 

First Gen. camera with firmware 1.06

First Gen. camera with firmware 1.09

Second Gen. camera with firmware 1.09

 

That essentially opens the poll up to all current M8 owners. Again, thanks to all for staying on topic. Lurkers, come on out!

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

Hiya,

 

OKAY, just seemed that your OP defined the pool of data a bit too narrowly

 

Here's a link to my earlier post.

 

In summary:

ISO 640

1/16

3300K

First gen. camera and f/w 1.06.

 

It was developed from the DNG with `dcraw' and `convert', where it was assigned an sRGB colorspace before writing this JPEG.

 

I have since loaded f/w 1.09... I will attempt Mark's "torture test", and as well a re-shoot of the tree and get back to youse.

 

rgds,

Dave

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[Eoin]

Hi Sean,

 

M8 FW v 1.0.6 un-modified

 

Vertical band visible when shot DNG with body cap on and processed in C1 Pro v 3.7.6 with +2.5 EV

 

1/16th only at ISO 1250

1/30th between ISO 2500 - 640

1/60th between ISO 2500 - 640

1/250th between ISO 2500 - 640

 

I have not noticed it in any normal shots, but then again I have not really shot much low light stuff.

 

After update to FW v 1.0.9 processed the same way

 

1/16th only at ISO 640

1/30th between ISO 2500 - 640

1/60th between ISO 1250 - 640

1/250th between ISO 640 - 320

[mwilliamsphotography]

Marc-

When you say "medium" and "long" shutter speeds, were they all 1/30 or longer, so that noise reduction would have removed the band?

 

 

Hi Steve, yes, shutter speeds lower than 1/30th.

 

I'll try some shots right now since it's dark out.

 

I'll be back in a bit.

 

Thanks for the tip.

[bnelsch]

First Gen w/ 1.09 FW using lenscap test, ISO 2500, process C1, EV +2.5:

 

no vertical line at 1/15s

faint vertical line at 1/60s

 

I am now getting a black first image whenever I wipe the card. The image number is sequential and I am not losing any images, just getting an added extra black one. Anyone else?

[mwilliamsphotography]

Okay, I'm back. Here's what I learned after that tip to avoid the noise reduction:

 

I shot a black bounce card ISO 2500 @ 1/60th, and then processed it as is ... then pushed it to the max in C-1 ( + 2.5 )

 

The band is there, see 2 black rectangle images below.

 

I then shot a black object normally so it would coincide with where the vertical banding is.

In this case ISO 2500 @ 1/45th ... then lifted that abnormally to + 1/5 in C-1.

 

No banding.

 

I guess this is why I've never seen the banding while shooting.

 

Next I'm going to see if any of my other CCD cameras do this under abnormal conditions.

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[jonoslack]

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Hi Sean

1st Generation Camera

 

no banding visible at normal exposure

 

vertical band visible under torture test, both with 1.06 and 1.09 (no visible difference)

 

Not visible with any jpg files

[Jamie Roberts]

{snipped}

I then shot a black object normally so it would coincide with where the vertical banding is.

In this case ISO 2500 @ 1/45th ... then lifted that abnormally to + 1/5 in C-1.

 

No banding.

 

I guess this is why I've never seen the banding while shooting.

 

Next I'm going to see if any of my other CCD cameras do this under abnormal conditions.

 

Marc--that is a bit bizarre if I understand correctly...

 

Do you have any idea why a black object taking up part of the frame (the umbrella) would cause the camera to behave any differently than, um, a black object taking up the full frame (the black card)?

 

Or is the band just effectively camouflaged or something...

[sean_reid]

Thanks for the replies and thanks for staying on topic.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

[mwilliamsphotography]

I don't get it either Sean. It absolutly is not there in the Profoto shot. I took it all the way up on my screen and pixel-peeped it. It would have showed up in the +1.5 version anyway wouldn't it?

 

Honestly, I've not experienced the banding that I can recall in all those wedding shots I did and I shot a lot of 1250 stuff in pretty poor light ... nor has it reared it's ugly head in any other regular low light situation. Yet.

 

I was talking with Irakly today, and he experienced the banding on some shots while in Siberia, then it disappeared, and he can't induce it at all now. He's going to try the lens cap test. We'll see then.

 

It's a mystery to me.

 

Oh well, I guess I'll have to send it in after all. Darn.

[Jamie Roberts]

I guess what I'm saying is I haven't seen it with real photographic material in 1.06 either. At all. I've gone through hundreds of dark-ish shots at all ISOs in C1 now, and I just don't see it.

 

Yet, now, with 1.09, even with shots of my desk, at high ISOs--and pushed--it's certainly there.

 

(I hope this is on-topic Sean; just trying to qualify my poll-response and understand how subject matter would related to banding in this case).

[Dan States]

Has anyone seen the banding in properly exposed shots that are NOT exposure adjusted in post processing?

 

I only ask because I can generate similar bands (multiple) with a Nikon D200 at H1 (3200asa) setting with the cap on. If you can't see this in any real world photography it may not be worth shipping your camera off.

[sean_reid]

I'm just now testing my "Gen 1" M8 with 1.06. I did mention the lens cap testing yesterday in my other thread but I decided tonight to revise that a little. I'm now photographing a dimly lit white card located about 1" in front of the lens. I'm still digesting all the results but two things strike me.

 

1. The vertical band (and some stranger phenomena) are visible in both the JPEGs and the converted RAW files (all made at 1/60 second) at all ISO levels. In the RAW conversions, they aren't readily visible until the file is "amplified" with a 2.5 stop EV boost in C1.

 

2. Despite this, I've been shooting with this camera in all kinds of lighting since September without this vertical banding issue ever raising its head in real pictures. I believe many others here might say the same.

 

Still investigating. I'm curious about Furrukh's comment that the camera seems more prone to do this right after it's turned on or "awoken" from sleep mode.

 

Will do similar tests with my Gen. 2., 1.09 camera.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

[eric_lajeunesse]

640 iso 1.4 35mm no IR 1/15 CI pro no push ( m8 1.09new)

[eric_lajeunesse]

Oups!!

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[rvaubel]

What!! Thats not a vetical band. This is something intirely different. Have you ever had this happen before?

 

Rex

[sean_reid]

Oups!!

 

That split picture effect is consistent with something I'm discovering right now as I'm testing a "1st gen" 1.6 camera. More when I understand better what is going on. I think it's related to the vertical band and I'll explain that more later.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

[mitchell]

I have a lot of shots taken at dusk and night. Most have horizantal streaking. I haven't found any vertical.

 

My camera is at Solms so I haven't been able to test for vertical since this issue has been discovered.

 

Appreciate your efforts.

 

Best,

 

Mitchell

[Nitnaros]

What!! Thats not a vetical band. This is something intirely different. Have you ever had this happen before?

 

Rex

 

That looks like an issue that people are observing on high-end digital backs with wide angle lenses (e.g. Leaf Aptus-75, 33MP back). Its called there "centerfold" issue and seems to relate to the fact that these large sensors are assembled from more than 1 chip which can cause problems in calibrating each sub-sensor equally...

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[khanosu]

In Marc’s post (#26) the lowering of the shutter speed in the Profoto picture could have trigged the black frame removal noise reduction; this would explain the absence of the vertical band in that picture. Apparently the black frame noise removal does not get triggered exactly at 1/30 sec. but around this value. based on some (unknown to us) algorithm.

 

Furrukh