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Pity the M8 wasn't maintained as an entry-level digital M


plasticman

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I fear that the debate has gone off in various different directions - some of which I definitely didn't anticipate.

 

Anyway, as I said in my first post, the capacity problem for Leica would always be the greatest stumbling-block to maintaining a tiered M-range, and that reason alone would probably make it impossible.

 

We could debate whether an extended M-system might possibly have been a better and more profitable concentration of manufacturing resources than the S2 - I think the jury is still out on that one(?)

 

I personally don't see any point for Leica to mass-produce a plastic M in the Far East - not only are the most expensive parts not affected by these changes, much of the pleasure in using and owning an M-system camera would disappear if it was poorly constructed and felt fragile in use. I also think it is debatable whether such a camera would sell - appealing neither to the M purist, nor the click-happy DSLR user.

 

With regard to the secondhand market - as I've said, digital cameras are very different to their film counterparts. I'm having no doubts about buying a twenty or thirty year old film camera in the near future (just so soon I find the right one). A three year old digital camera, on the other hand, could conceivably have 30000 shutter actuations, and electronically be on its last legs.

 

In any case, I don't understand how the M-system is going to prosper and grow in the future if the price of entry to new users makes it prohibitively expensive. In addition, the tendency appears to be that each progressive upgrade of the M is exponentially more expensive than the previous incarnation. For those of us already invested in the system, this makes future-planning extremely difficult - especially when the tendency within the industry has been that newer DSLRs have generally been cheaper than their predecessors.

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Frank, I can't speak for the folks at Leica, but I do like what they make. I can, however, speak of my own expeiences. Every day I go to work my main concern is how to make better pictures and write better articles. I don't obsess about how much each picture or paragraph will earn or cost me. Those issues are secondary.

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What was your first Leica Mani? Dlux2 wasnt it:rolleyes:?

 

Rob - I got it back a few months ago - I'd given it away, but the person I gave it to finally got themselves a DSLR, and decided I should have it back. I took it out for a walk and realized what a brilliant camera it is. I keep on meaning to always have it in my bag, but then I think about the millions of images on my hard drive waiting to be printed, and I leave it in the drawer.

 

It's a great camera though - but it's not an M.

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This isn’t about what would be nice to have … We can wish for a low-cost entry-level M as much as we like, but since it isn’t realistic to expect that Leica will develop and build such a camera that’s neither here nor there.

Lack of imagination? Sounds like others have some of it: http://pindelski.org/Photography/category/cameras/panasonic-g1/

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Guest BigSplash
I fear that the debate has gone off in various different directions - some of which I definitely didn't anticipate.

 

Anyway, as I said in my first post, the capacity problem for Leica would always be the greatest stumbling-block to maintaining a tiered M-range, and that reason alone would probably make it impossible. Unless you subcontract and/or increase capacity as Leica does with the new facility.

 

We could debate whether an extended M-system might possibly have been a better and more profitable concentration of manufacturing resources than the S2 - I think the jury is still out on that one(?) Agreed

 

I personally don't see any point for Leica to mass-produce a plastic M in the Far East - not only are the most expensive parts not affected by these changes, much of the pleasure in using and owning an M-system camera would disappear if it was poorly constructed and felt fragile in use. I also think it is debatable whether such a camera would sell - appealing neither to the M purist, nor the click-happy DSLR user. The Leica CL did sell very well. The Digilux has a bunch of affection here, so why is a plastic M a none starter and why should it be "poorly constructed"? The digilux and plastic body Japanese cameras in general are well made

 

With regard to the secondhand market - as I've said, digital cameras are very different to their film counterparts. I'm having no doubts about buying a twenty or thirty year old film camera in the near future (just so soon I find the right one). A three year old digital camera, on the other hand, could conceivably have 30000 shutter actuations, and electronically be on its last legs. Agreed although shutters can be replaced, and there are no wear out mechanisms in the electronics..just more recent performant designs.

 

In any case, I don't understand how the M-system is going to prosper and grow in the future if the price of entry to new users makes it prohibitively expensive. In addition, the tendency appears to be that each progressive upgrade of the M is exponentially more expensive than the previous incarnation. For those of us already invested in the system, this makes future-planning extremely difficult - especially when the tendency within the industry has been that newer DSLRs have generally been cheaper than their predecessors.

 

Your last point is the key one and it is a position I find myself in. I have a bunch of Leica glass and if Leica does not secure its future.............enough said.

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Frank, I can't speak for the folks at Leica, but I do like what they make. I can, however, speak of my own expeiences. Every day I go to work my main concern is how to make better pictures and write better articles. I don't obsess about how much each picture or paragraph will earn or cost me. Those issues are secondary.

RedBaron I agree ...I love my M8 to bits and enjoy using it. I envy your contentment, and I too enjoy wandering around the area here rich in Mimosa bushes currently and lavander fields shortly. Then there is summer and the yachting season starts.

 

My only concern is that I would like Leica to secure its future and would like to see more products become available that I can use within a M system. I also would not like to see the company fail.

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Suppose you desperately wanted some company to build some product, so you did take up a job at that company and eventually you would be in a position to decide that the desired product be manufactured – only in that position you would have to base your decisions on what is best for the company, implying that you might have to decide against that product (that you still desire).

 

 

That is how a lot of companies get started.

 

Some one recognizes a gap in the market that the established companies do not see. Said person turns in to an entrepreneur and makes the product himself. In some cases that idea becomes widely successful and runs the companies that missed the boat out of business.

 

Leica's nightmare scenario should be that someone in Asia decides to build an RF camera with an M mount, that delivers excellent IQ with good construction, for half the cost of the M9. If that camera should ever arrive, Leica will not have 6 months or a year to come up with a low-end model to respond with.

 

Like I've said before, for the past 30 years they have had one foot on a skateboard and the other on a banana peel, because they are depending on a single product for the vast majority of their income. It's as if you put most of your money in the stock of a single company. If it tanks, you are toast.

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Isn't one of your M8s still in 1k little plastic bags :D :D ?

Time passes, star status stays on.

 

So you have an M9 now...?

 

Cheers,

Simon

 

All three are working fine, even the one which at one time had 30 wires coming out through its lens throat. I did manage to cook a transistor which I replaced...

 

Yes, I have an M9 but more than happy with the M8s...

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As another poster pointed out, the key requirement is for Leica to continue to maintain and support - but not necessarily enhance - the M8. M8s in various conditions and states of upgrade will, over time, form a range of entry points to Leica Digital M photography. In time, the M9 will fill the place above the M8s with a new M10 at the top of the tree.

 

A secondhand M8 makes perfect sense as an entry to Digital M photography.

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Like I've said before, for the past 30 years they have had one foot on a skateboard and the other on a banana peel, because they are depending on a single product for the vast majority of their income. It's as if you put most of your money in the stock of a single company. If it tanks, you are toast.

They don't. There is lenses, there are accessories, there is the repair dept,there are the specials for large companies and defence, there is the Panasonic connection, there is the X1 and S2, even the love of Frank's life the Pradovit, and -most importantly- there is the binoculars and scopes department which contributes as much or more as the camera division. Which, btw, can handle both the el-cheapo Asian and high-end European competition rather nicely.
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Leica's nightmare scenario should be that someone in Asia decides to build an RF camera with an M mount, that delivers excellent IQ with good construction, for half the cost of the M9. If that camera should ever arrive, Leica will not have 6 months or a year to come up with a low-end model to respond with

 

Voigtlander did that with their film cameras. In fact they were rather less than half the price of the Leica film cameras of the time. I don't think I ever saw anyone using one.

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Voigtlander did that with their film cameras. In fact they were rather less than half the price of the Leica film cameras of the time. I don't think I ever saw anyone using one.

 

 

I'm willing to bet that Cosina probably sells more Bessa bodies per year than Leica sells M bodies...

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