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Is the new M8 firmware just around the corner?


jaay

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They can make quick money by selling extra functionality and if this is done by firmware using code from the M9 development the revenue is basically pure profit.

 

 

No it isn't.

 

Aside from the fact that they would need to develop and implement a system that would allow the firmware to be sold without it being pirated, the idea that a firmware upgrade could be developed by simply copying and pasting code from the M9 firmware is a little naive.

 

The sale of firmware that may otherwise not have been developed may produce extra revenue, but it would not be pure profit.

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Nonsense.

 

Goodness! What a reaction! :)

 

Of course it makes commercial sense for Leica--a premium brand, after all--to take care of its customers.

 

I think they do a pretty good job of looking after their customers as it is, and I won't stop thinking that if they decide not to update my M8's firmware again. It's absurd to suggest that Leica's bottom line will suffer as a premium brand unless it keeps throwing resources at the firmware of a discontinued product for years into the future. If it's to fix bugs, well yes, but I'm not aware of any bugs that need fixing. People are asking for additional features. Where's the commercial sense in rolling out new features for free on discontinued models?

 

Don't get me wrong, I'd be happy if they did, but I can't agree with you that it's "nonsense" to suggest that it would not be a commercially wise investment of finite resources on their part.

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Guest BigSplash
No it isn't.

 

Aside from the fact that they would need to develop and implement a system that would allow the firmware to be sold without it being pirated, the idea that a firmware upgrade could be developed by simply copying and pasting code from the M9 firmware is a little naive.

 

The sale of firmware that may otherwise not have been developed may produce extra revenue, but it would not be pure profit.

 

Steve I said that the extra revenue is BASICALLY pure profit. I assume that Leica or Jenoptic have adopted a modular architecture ..if they haven't and we are discussing spaghetti code then you are correct copying and pasting M9 code will be difficult.

 

My point is that fixing the shutter lock up issue is something that has been done and that is a bug fix. In the case of manual lens identification I think it a reasonable assumption that within the M9 there is a module of code that does this and Leica do not need to develop it from scratch.Obviously some work is needed to stitch the module into a firmware release but given a market size of 40,000 and say a value of £100 for a FEATURES upgrade (with free bug fixes) that is a £4Million opportunity. Given that Leica was pleased to announce 1M €uros profit last quarter I would have thought a £4M opportunity is not to be sniffed at. :confused:

 

The risk of piracy has already been discussed and placing a module in a future firmware (if it does not already exist) that demands camera serial number recognition against "factory enabled" seems reasonable and desirable for Solms. If clients are obliged to register with the factory this automatically gives the factory a mailing list and an ability to better research their client base.

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I do see good reason to further support the M8. For many who cannot afford the M9 the M8 is the entry to the Leica M-System. Over the years these new clients will broaden the customer base and of course increase sales either via lenses or upcoming cameras.

 

Regards

Steve

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I think they do a pretty good job of looking after their customers as it is, and I won't stop thinking that if they decide not to update my M8's firmware again. It's absurd to suggest that Leica's bottom line will suffer as a premium brand unless it keeps throwing resources at the firmware of a discontinued product for years into the future. If it's to fix bugs, well yes, but I'm not aware of any bugs that need fixing. People are asking for additional features. Where's the commercial sense in rolling out new features for free on discontinued models?

 

Don't get me wrong, I'd be happy if they did, but I can't agree with you that it's "nonsense" to suggest that it would not be a commercially wise investment of finite resources on their part.

 

There are bugs to fix.....the oft quoted "Shutter lock up problem" in continuous mode is a case in point. Pressing the shutter with the lens cap on and subsequently removing the lower cover plate is another lockup issue. OK both can usually be resolved by simply removing and replacing the battery....or leaving the camera on with no battery to discharge the internal battery, and then replacing the main battery. In my view and you seem to agree these should be fixed by Leica.

 

 

You ask "Where's the commercial sense in rolling out new features for free on discontinued models?".....My answer is none, but who said that they should be provided for free? Frankly I would be interested in having some features that upgraded my M8 in the direction of M9 and would pay for this. Many M8 users have said that they would pay to have for example manual lens recognition, others want ISO button instead of the protect button. etc

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Andy I would point out:
  1. Windows XP launched in 2001 is still getting REGULAR updates (I have Version 5.1) and every few weeks my computer asks me if I wish to apply the updates.
  2. I bought my M8 June 2009 and that would equate to Windows Vista not XP
  3. Microsoft are supporting XP and Vista and have not just focussed Windows 7

 

The updates you get are bug fixes and security patches. Given that XP is now 9 years old, one would have thought they'd have found all these by now, but that's the wonderful world of Windows I suppose

 

they don't add any new features (apart from other bugs, maybe :) )

 

And I'm sure you know what the industry thought of Vista... That's the only reason why they continue to support XP - because no one went over to Vista. This PC I am using now is running XP, and we _may_ consider going to windows 7 next year. It must be a major problem for Microsoft and its revenue stream.

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The updates you get are bug fixes and security patches. Given that XP is now 9 years old, one would have thought they'd have found all these by now, but that's the wonderful world of Windows I suppose

 

they don't add any new features (apart from other bugs, maybe :) )

 

Andy there is NO realistic viable alternative to Windows on a PC.

 

Why would anyone wish to buy a product (Mac) with underperforming hardware, at breathtaking prices, limited software availability, limited 3rd party hardware availability and a mentality to lock in the client. .....Yes I am talking about Apple, not........!!! :)

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Given that Leica was pleased to announce 1M €uros profit last quarter I would have thought a £4M opportunity is not to be sniffed at. :confused:

 

Only if every single M8 owner was prepared to stump up £100 for these additional features (assuming 40,000 M8s have been sold)

 

I would wager that only a very small proportion, maybe 20% might be tempted to do so, which brings your turnover prediction down to around £800k.

 

People will soon update firmware when it's free, but will be more retiscent when it comes to paying for a bug fix and a few odd additional "features" that they may not even want.

 

After all, look at the people who are still using Windows XP ;)

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Andy there is NO realistic viable alternative to Windows on a PC.

 

Why would anyone wish to buy a product (Mac) with underperforming hardware, at breathtaking prices, limited software availability, limited 3rd party hardware availability and a mentality to lock in the client. .....Yes I am talking about Apple, not........!!! :)

 

Please don't start a Windows / Mac argument. You have obviously never used one.

PM me if you want to discuss performance issues, but not here. Thanks

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...As far as bug fixes go, I feel that Leica has an obligation and duty to its customers to address software bugs that it is aware of and can reproduce if-f its possible... BUT I do NOT feel that Leica is obligated to add features to an older camera...

Agreed. Leica wrote the following about the M8:

There is a bug on the firmware which causes the alert "shutter fault". This problem should be gone with the next firmware which is hopefully comming out soon.
M8 shutter fault
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{snipped}

I think they do a pretty good job of looking after their customers as it is, and I won't stop thinking that if they decide not to update my M8's firmware again. It's absurd to suggest that Leica's bottom line will suffer as a premium brand unless it keeps throwing resources at the firmware of a discontinued product for years into the future. If it's to fix bugs, well yes, but I'm not aware of any bugs that need fixing. People are asking for additional features. Where's the commercial sense in rolling out new features for free on discontinued models?

 

Don't get me wrong, I'd be happy if they did, but I can't agree with you that it's "nonsense" to suggest that it would not be a commercially wise investment of finite resources on their part.

 

Well, we're going to agree to disagree, then. It's not "absurd" in the slightest to suggest that Leica's bottom line will suffer if they don't keep the M8 community happy right now (which is different than your straw man argument "years into the future"--I don't know what that means).

 

Anyway, there's every probability that continue to support the M8--even with new features--if it can be done in conjunction with M9 updates. IIRC they're not that different, right?

 

And there are M8 bugs to fix: this is where Leica's brand comes in. Not only the shutter fault, but write issues as well (there's a race condition somewhere in that firmware, I have no doubt). Just because you haven't run into them doesn't mean they aren't there. As a pro, I'd like them fixed.

 

In fact, they really need fixing, and Leica owes that to its digital M community, which, given how few M9s there are out there, is mainly the M8 community.

 

And while I might agree that supporting the M8 untold years into the the future is not viable (how could it be?), we're still talking about the M8 as the mainstream digital M in use right now. It would be crazy for Leica to turn its back on its loyal adopters.

 

I for one, would totally rethink my brand loyalty to Leica if I thought that were the case. I would also rethink an M9 upgrade.

 

But as I've said here and elsewhere, I have every confidence that Leica will do the right thing for the M8 community. They did for the DMR community even when it must have been like "pulling teeth" from Imacon / Hasselblad.

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Anyway, there's every probability that continue to support the M8--even with new features--if it can be done in conjunction with M9 updates. IIRC they're not that different, right?

 

Without access to the firmware source code that's not really possible to say. As I mentioned earlier adding a function in firmware A to firmware B is unlikely to be a simple copy and paste operation. There's also the issue of how much spare memory the M8 has to support any new function.

 

There may be an M8 firmware upgrade, but I would always expect the M9 to take priority when assigning programming resources - just as the M10 will do when it comes along.

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A lot of people also don't realize this, but BUGS occur in HARDWARE with similar frequently as they do in SOFTWARE. These cannot be easily patched/fixed and have to be worked around. A lot of firmware results in software-work-arounds for hardware bugs. Again, to restate my position, if Leica is aware of a bug and can reproduce it then I believe that they are obligated to fix the issue if its viable and possible to do so.

 

Features (aka. nice-to-haves), even though Leica mentioned that there may be upgrade paths available for the M8 would come second IMO. I'd rather have the camera working as close to bug-free then having additional buggy features.

 

Best regards,

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Without access to the firmware source code that's not really possible to say. As I mentioned earlier adding a function in firmware A to firmware B is unlikely to be a simple copy and paste operation. There's also the issue of how much spare memory the M8 has to support any new function.

 

There may be an M8 firmware upgrade, but I would always expect the M9 to take priority when assigning programming resources - just as the M10 will do when it comes along.

 

Steve--I agree on the specifics. I just know that since Jenoptik is doing both, there's a probability that they can continue to work on both models, especially to squash bugs.

 

I also know Leica had to focus on the M9 to fix problems before distribution gets any wider. Having said that, I still think they need to stand by the majority of their customers and fix up the remaining M8 problems that they can fix.

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Andy I would point out:

  1. Windows XP launched in 2001 is still getting REGULAR updates (I have Version 5.1) and every few weeks my computer asks me if I wish to apply the updates.
  2. I bought my M8 June 2009 and that would equate to Windows Vista not XP
  3. Microsoft are supporting XP and Vista and have not just focussed Windows 7

 

Dear Frank,

 

Unfortunately, you are not quite right:

  1. Windows XP left Mainstream Suppoort eleven month ago (see Microsoft Support Lifecycle), meaning you won't get any new features (see Help and Support), only security updates
  2. Microsoft recommends you to upgrade to Windows 7 (see End of support for Windows XP with Service Pack (SP2) and Windows Vista without service packs - Windows Help & How-to)
  3. You can purchase extended support
  4. Your product will continue to work (see for example Windows Operating System Product Support Lifecycle FAQ)

 

As Daniel Stephan already publicly announced an upcoming bug fix update for the M8 at the Leica Erlebnistage late last year and according to him, Leica thinks about charging a premium for a release with new features, it looks you might be better of with an M8 than with XP...

 

Best regards,

Michael

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(...) They can make quick money by selling extra functionality and if this is done by firmware using code from the M9 development the revenue is basically pure profit. The market opportunity is 40,000 M8 cameras (many of which would be interested in manual lens selection for example).(...)

 

Ever asked Microsoft to port down new features from Vista to XP or Win7 to Vista (or let alone XP)?

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And there are M8 bugs to fix: this is where Leica's brand comes in. Not only the shutter fault, but write issues as well (there's a race condition somewhere in that firmware, I have no doubt). Just because you haven't run into them doesn't mean they aren't there. As a pro, I'd like them fixed.

 

In fact, they really need fixing, and Leica owes that to its digital M community, which, given how few M9s there are out there, is mainly the M8 community.

 

And while I might agree that supporting the M8 untold years into the the future is not viable (how could it be?), we're still talking about the M8 as the mainstream digital M in use right now. It would be crazy for Leica to turn its back on its loyal adopters.

 

I for one, would totally rethink my brand loyalty to Leica if I thought that were the case. I would also rethink an M9 upgrade.

 

But as I've said here and elsewhere, I have every confidence that Leica will do the right thing for the M8 community. They did for the DMR community even when it must have been like "pulling teeth" from Imacon / Hasselblad.

 

I agree 100% with Jamie. The idea that an M8 that I paid $5,000 for might now be an orphan, only three years after its release is maddening. One of the things that makes Leica Leica is that you can count on its products being viable for a long time. Now, I don't expect my M8 to be working 80 years from now like a 1930s Model G. But I do expect that it won't be abandoned like a piece of junk consumer electronics. I would never have bought an M8 if I believed that to be the case, and everything that Leica said about the M8 led me to believe it would be supported and updated.

 

I would say that a minimum of 10 years' full support could be expected. I don't expect Leica to add features to the M8 that are only possible with the M9's dual processors. But I do expect bug fixes, I do expect a lens menu including any lenses the M8 contains correction tables for. Otherwise, it is not an open system camera, and we have a right to expect any Leica bearing the "M" designation to be so.

 

Leica is under no obligation to guarantee performance with lenses other than their own. But they are contradicting 80 years of their own history by making it artificially harder to use them, and it is that history ("brand identity") that sells cameras and lenses. I simply don't buy the idea that a lens menu is "too hard" to implement. It sounds like Marketing-speak. Lens selection routines already exist, and menus are trivial, any first-year computer science student could program one in a half-hour. It's likely just a matter of some subroutine calls that allow a menu to select the same lens tables that the coding detection routine does.

 

You gleeful M9 owners, beware. If Leica can abandon the M8, it can just as easily abandon the M9 when the M10 comes out. And the M10 for the M11. That may be a viable business model for point-and-shoots and cellphones. It is not a viable model for a pro-priced, pro-quality system camera.

 

--Peter

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I agree 100% with Jamie. The idea that an M8 that I paid $5,000 for might now be an orphan, only three years after its release is maddening. ...

 

You gleeful M9 owners, beware. If Leica can abandon the M8, it can just as easily abandon the M9 when the M10 comes out. And the M10 for the M11. That may be a viable business model for point-and-shoots and cellphones. It is not a viable model for a pro-priced, pro-quality system camera.

 

--Peter

 

Peter, don't be so sure... Leica may have taken a lesson from Canon here... just look at the professional series 1D/1Ds cameras. They are on their forth revision right night (aka Mark IV). And even though these are professional grade and expensive cameras (with the 1Ds similar in price to the M8/9 bodies), Canon was under no obligation to the 'professionals' once the new version came out to back-date the older ones. Nor did they do any of that.

 

They expected that professionals who use the equipment would lease/buy new gear. In the end, the camera is a tool for the professional to do his/her job and their responsibility to buy/lease the right tool for the right job. After all, most professionals claim this expense from their taxes and buy the latest/greatest hardware for their job which finances the pruchases.

 

Best regards,

 

T.

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IMO Leica has three outstanding assets:

 

-whatever came from there since Oskar Barnack in the analog age = their NAME, though only the first three letters are still there, put for attention-grabbing on a red dot (as a reminder of how often things got critical?)

-the OPTICAL and MECHANICAL engineers and specialists=Facharbeiter (in the IT age we tend to forget how important they are)

 

and to far more than 51%:

the CUSTOMERS willing and able to spend for their hobby

so much, that also people at Cosina, even after sharing with Zeiss marketing (and Zeiss lens design 4-6 years ago), do carry on. (Them without but also because of the heaven-sent Dr. K.)

 

Hence, I'd like to think that there will be software updates for the M8. The idea that it was "game over" 6 months after a costly hard ware update, would be contrary to the L-philosophy (and to the logic of a non-entrepreneur like me. The postings of arm-chair CEO's last year made me laugh. "What whould I do if I was Napoleon, Edison!!! etc.)

 

So:

(patient) cheers! :)

 

to the absolutely necessary vociferous reminders through threads & (repeated) posts (to continuously keep this issue in actuality).

 

PS Got my two M8 2 years after the digi-M came out and don't regret it. Take my time again to vote with my wallet, waiting at least for that great surface material to be brought back to normal standards on the M9.

Do I sell one of the M8s? Within the family, to friends or so, in 2011.

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