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stonearabiapix

Is there a Lieca representative monitoring this forum?

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If there is, I don't know that I've ever seen them chime into any conversation.

Hard to imagine there wouldn't be someone at least watching the boards. But who knows?

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Yes, Leica folks read these forums fairly regularly. Stephan Daniel personally responded when the issue of cracked M9 sensors came up last fall, thanking us for the heads-up. IIRC he also posted after the M8 intro, regarding the banding and blobs issues of the first cameras.

 

CEO Dr. Kaufmann tends to favor the Rangefinder Forum, I believe.

 

"Reading" and "posting" are two different things, of course. They don't post much unless they actually have something important to say. Twitter, this isn't.

 

It is not a company-operated forum (may have been once 4-5 years ago). It is a private venture by Andreas Jürgensen (see the tag at the bottom of every page.)

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Both Dr Kaufmann and Stefan Daniels are members here, but they are not regular posters. Others at Solms and Milton Keynes do read some threads, but not all, obviously. No one reads all the threads.

 

The forum has been private for nearly 4 years, but we do have a very close relationship with Leica, closer than any other.

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Guest BigSplash
If there is, can we petition "him-her" of our concerns?

If there isn't shouldn't there be?

 

Why would they want to do that? The dealer network feedback complains loudly about lack of M9, lack of new lenses, lack of batteries and the frustration of no reliable shipping schedule that clears the delinquent backlog. There are many complaints about Leica quality and aftersales service which Solms will have presumably the data on.

 

In the face of such feedback Solms has chosen NOT to give any clear announcements to their customers other than to say that:

  • They switched warehouses for two weeks that caused delivery problems ( actually these have gone on since October and continue today)
  • They recognise the M8 firmware shutter issue since three years and that new firmware will at some point be released ( rumour was last November but we still wait)
  • They may offer new M9 features to M8 users at a price but have not been specific about this.
  • Noctilux started shipping in January 2010...it was announced early 2009.

I get the impression that Solms is inward focussed trying to resolve supplier issues and making their P&L happen. I have seen no interest so far of a continuous improvement programme apart from a recent short questionnaire from customer service, and this in itself speaks volumes about the company.

 

A company that sells a £5000 M body and M lenses that go up to £7000 should be IMHO highly focussed towards continuous improvement and encourage feedback. I guess that this will be even more true for the S2 aimed at a demanding pro market against entrenched competitors such as Phase One and Hasselblad.

 

However the flavour I get is that Leica management know best, and this forum does not like armchair CEO's (term used for those that critique Leica at a business level)

 

The answer is to accept what you get and enjoy the product with its problems that may or may not be fixed.

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Sometimes Companies have a staffer pretend to be a user to watch the forums and report back to headquarters...

 

Personally one un-named forum member acts a bit suspicious...

 

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In the face of such feedback Solms has chosen NOT to give any clear announcements to their customers...

 

...which makes it sound like a causal relationship, which it blatantly isn't. When will you learn that it is not Leica's style, and never has been, to gabble away like a lonely old lady?

 

I get the impression...

 

IMHO...

 

I guess...

 

...the flavour I get...

 

Never let a fact trouble you, will you?

 

 

...this forum does not like armchair CEO's (term used for those that critique Leica at a business level)

 

"This forum" is a platform for opinion and discussion, not an entity. What many here do not appreciate is those who have no experience of camera design or of running a camera manufacturing company who think that they know better than those they do, and who go on about it ad nauseam.

 

The answer is to accept what you get and enjoy the product with its problems that may or may not be fixed.

 

The answer is to form your own opinions based on your own experience and not to be talked into despair by those who have their own agendas against Leica.

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"This forum" is a platform for opinion and discussion, not an entity. What many here do not appreciate is those who have no experience of camera design or of running a camera manufacturing company who think that they know better than those they do, and who go on about it ad nauseam. The answer is to form your own opinions based on your own experience and not to be talked into despair by those who have their own agendas against Leica.

 

 

Well said! My sentiments as well! Thanks!

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...which makes it sound like a causal relationship, which it blatantly isn't. When will you learn that it is not Leica's style, and never has been, to gabble away like a lonely old lady?

 

 

 

Never let a fact trouble you, will you?

 

 

 

 

"This forum" is a platform for opinion and discussion, not an entity. What many here do not appreciate is those who have no experience of camera design or of running a camera manufacturing company who think that they know better than those they do, and who go on about it ad nauseam.

 

 

 

The answer is to form your own opinions based on your own experience and not to be talked into despair by those who have their own agendas against Leica.

Very well said, Bill

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Guest BigSplash

Bill it seems that your usual "Gin & Tonic" mates all seem to agree with you.....As they are like you very vocal members of this forum I guess that makes them right. I however disagree.

 

Bill in your specific case you do not have a M8 (or M9) and have even bought a Leica competitor digital product with a Leica M adapter ! Yet you enter into a debate about the M8 issues that some of us have (yes me and many others!) when trying to get service, batteries, lenshood, UV/IR filter. I do now worry about the lifetime of my M8 shutter that is still under guarantee given the number of complainst in this forum. I am frankly upset that there is no news about M8 new firmware availability that was rumoured since November, with Stefan D. suggesting that we can buy upgraded M9 type features .....still no news on this. Bill, I ask myself "how can these concerns as someone who does not even own a M8 be of any interest to you?

 

I as an M8 owner ask such questions because they affect me directly. I actually would like clarity from Leica and am not getting it.

 

I also worry about how Leica will survive as a company pandering to the likes of you that own their M film cameras and go elsewhere for digital as you have recently done.

 

Jaapv uses at least a M9, where he gets special treatment at Solms to calibrate his camera and lens. He uses R lenses ( no longer in production) and the "R" Leica digital back ( no longer in production)

 

Andy uses a Nikon DSLR with R lenses and he has no M8 (or M9 ).

 

I am consistently pushing for continuous improvement at Leica yet you guys do not get it. ..perhaps because you have no hands on visibility of what it is like being a M8 (or M9) owner.

 

I also have M4,5,6 and frankly that is a different ownership model.

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Wait a minute? What have I got to do with your rant? And are you having a go at me because I'm a friend of Bill? How dare you! What's that got to do with you?

 

I use an M2. An M7. An R4. An R8. A Dlux-3. And a IIIf. I used to own a DMR. Oh, and I have a Nikon D700.

 

I use the M7 mostly.

 

Please do not accuse me of not being loyal to Leica. But, perhaps you should ask yourself why I don't own an M8.

 

(In case you hadn't noticed, this country is up to its neck in debt and the economy is on its arse. That may be one reason why a don't own an M9... Not everyone on this forum is a retired CEO with a yacht on the Cote d'Azure)

Edited by andybarton

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Is Bigsplash in breach of the data protection act? He clearly has a file on each and every one of us, spooky............

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so how about Frank (Bigsplash) and Bill and anyone else over here getting less worked up about all of this? I do not see this discussion going anywhere useful. Surely we have better things to do.

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Why would they want to do that? The dealer network feedback complains loudly about lack of M9, lack of new lenses, lack of batteries and the frustration of no reliable shipping schedule that clears the delinquent backlog. There are many complaints about Leica quality and aftersales service which Solms will have presumably the data on.

 

In the face of such feedback Solms has chosen NOT to give any clear announcements to their customers other than to say that:

  • They switched warehouses for two weeks that caused delivery problems ( actually these have gone on since October and continue today)
  • They recognise the M8 firmware shutter issue since three years and that new firmware will at some point be released ( rumour was last November but we still wait)
  • They may offer new M9 features to M8 users at a price but have not been specific about this.
  • Noctilux started shipping in January 2010...it was announced early 2009.

I get the impression that Solms is inward focussed trying to resolve supplier issues and making their P&L happen. I have seen no interest so far of a continuous improvement programme apart from a recent short questionnaire from customer service, and this in itself speaks volumes about the company.

 

A company that sells a £5000 M body and M lenses that go up to £7000 should be IMHO highly focussed towards continuous improvement and encourage feedback. I guess that this will be even more true for the S2 aimed at a demanding pro market against entrenched competitors such as Phase One and Hasselblad.

 

However the flavour I get is that Leica management know best, and this forum does not like armchair CEO's (term used for those that critique Leica at a business level)

 

The answer is to accept what you get and enjoy the product with its problems that may or may not be fixed.

 

I wholeheartedly agree. The sun has way too many spots. The sun management ought to be made aware of our concerns that we do not on the whole agree on the effect the sun spots may or may not have on the exposure of our indoors images made by products labelled as "Leica".

 

Well: Either you are a customer of Leica. In that case you ought to take your complaint to Leica. What's your complaint, anyway? Your post does not appear to be all that clear on that account.

 

Or you are not a customer of Leica's. What was your complaint again?

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we camera owners are a funny bunch, go to any camera forum and be it Leica, Canon, Nikon or whoever there are always complaints about after sales, kit availability etc.

My advice and limited experience is to have a spare and go to the organ grinder with your suggestions.

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Normally, Frank, I let your vile water flow beneath my bridge but on this occasion the water level has risen too high for me to ignore.

 

Why would they want to do that? (In response to the thread's title.)

Obviously to be more informed of issues of concern to a group of their customers (although they are of course free to act or ignore as they see fit).

 

... [*]They recognise the M8 firmware shutter issue since three years and that new firmware will at some point be released ( rumour was last November but we still wait) ....

You are plainly wrong. The 'firmware shutter issue' as you call it is a result of using discreet mode with the camera set to Continuous Mode where the camera gets confused about the state the shutter is in and incorrectly reports a shutter fault. This is rectified by removing the battery and has happened to me a few times and is not terminal. This condition manifested itself with the advent of the discreet mode in firmware issue 2.004 that was issued in March 2009 so to say "They recognise the M8 firmware shutter issue since three years" is plainly wrong.

 

... I do now worry about the lifetime of my M8 shutter that is still under guarantee given the number of complainst in this forum. ...

You appear to be confused. The complaints that you mention are about damaged or broken shutter blades (and have nothing to do with the firmware issue). In actual fact if you look you will find that there are very few reports of broken shutters but these have been amplified and repeated because they are bad news. No, in an ideal world shutters should not break but these things happen and if you took the number of bona fide shutter failures and compared it against the number of M8's sold I'm sure that you will find the comparison to be well within the MTBF target.

 

Bill it seems that your usual "Gin & Tonic" mates all seem to agree with you.....As they are like you very vocal members of this forum I guess that makes them right. I however disagree. ...

Must you resort to a puerile ad hominem attack?

 

... Bill, I ask myself "how can these concerns as someone who does not even own a M8 be of any interest to you? ...

What relevance does this remark have? Does not owning an M8 disqualify non-owners from having an interest in the M8? What if they're considering purchasing one eventually?

 

More puerile ad hominem attack.

 

... I also worry about how Leica will survive as a company pandering to the likes of you that own their M film cameras and go elsewhere for digital as you have recently done. ...
... I get the impression that Solms is inward focussed trying to resolve supplier issues and making their P&L happen. ...

You're confused again, Frank. You say you're "worried how Leica will survive" but that "Solms is inward focussed trying to resolve supplier issues and making their P&L happen". You can't have it both ways. How can Leica survive without looking after its Profit and Loss sheet? I would have thought that someone who claims to have had the business background that you've claimed to have had would have understood this. Don't you actually want it to survive?

 

... this forum does not like armchair CEO's (term used for those that critique Leica at a business level) ...

No, it's a term used for those who unreasonably criticise the management of a company without any real understanding of the company's business. The image that comes to mind here, Frank, is of you as a parent at his child's football match bellowing instructions from the sidelines at the poor mite that contradict what he's been instructed to do by his coach until he really hasn't got a clue what he should do.

 

... perhaps because you have no hands on visibility of what it is like being a M8 (or M9) owner. ...

 

Oh, and for the record I have owned an M8 since January 2007, I don't share the concerns you regularly whine about and, for me, being an M8 owner has been a very pleasant experience.

 

Pete.

Edited by farnz

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Guest BigSplash
Normally, Frank, I let your vile water flow beneath my bridge but on this occasion the water level has risen too high for me to ignore. ......Must you resort to a puerile ad hominem attack? .

 

Pete excuse me but is it not the case that you are resorting to such an attack without addressing the salient points that I have made here and in other threads that you simply brush off as vile?

 

 

Obviously to be more informed of issues of concern to a group of their customers (although they are of course free to act or ignore as they see fit). .....

 

Actually the OP wanted a listener and speaker identified by the Leica company. Here you are suggesting that Leica may (or may not) listen and this somehow should be good enough!

I suggested in my earlier thread that it would be nice to have Solms inputs on firmware, shipments etc. Andreas gave the ONLY visibility I am aware of from Solms (re the change of shipping arrangements) and that was a month ago, but the issue has been around since last October. The dealers remain in the dark.

 

You are plainly wrong. The 'firmware shutter issue' as you call it is a result of using discreet mode with the camera set to Continuous Mode where the camera gets confused about the state the shutter is in and incorrectly reports a shutter fault. This is rectified by removing the battery and has happened to me a few times and is not terminal. This condition manifested itself with the advent of the discreet mode in firmware issue 2.004 that was issued in March 2009 so to say "They recognise the M8 firmware shutter issue since three years" is plainly wrong.

 

You appear to be confused. The complaints that you mention are about damaged or broken shutter blades (and have nothing to do with the firmware issue). In actual fact if you look you will find that there are very few reports of broken shutters but these have been amplified and repeated because they are bad news. No, in an ideal world shutters should not break but these things happen and if you took the number of bona fide shutter failures and compared it against the number of M8's sold I'm sure that you will find the comparison to be well within the MTBF target. .

 

You are correct that there is a "new " shutter issue with continuous mode due to the firmware introduced last March, which should have been fixed at the rumoured release of November, reinforced by coments made by Stefan D. This release has still not happened.

If you look at other threads (eg the one on if M8 shutter fault will be repaired free of charge outside warranty) Leica told that user that the fix may be a simple firmware fix, and may not be hardware related. There have been other threads that have noted shutter faults dating to the initial M8 release and these are hopefully going to be fixed by firmware.

Separately I remain concerned that M8.2 changed to a very slightly quieter shutter but with a lower speed...why?

You say that you are sure about M8 shutter failures being well within the MTBF target ...This is excellent news. Can you send me details of the MTBF target that Solms is using, and the measured data as I cannot find it.

My belief would be that 1 failure of the shutter mechanism per 10,000 cameras would be acceptable for a camera of Leica M8 cost and prestige....That means 40 faulty mechanisms which I would imagine Leica could fix for free rather thas see this forum raising the subject as frequently as we have seen.

 

What relevance does this remark have? Does not owning an M8 disqualify non-owners from having an interest in the M8? What if they're considering purchasing one eventually? .

 

Having an interest yes, and especially if they are thinking of eventual purchase. In Bill's case he has declared that he would never buy an M8, and I believe Andy has said the same. It would be interesting to hear why they would never buy a digtal M yet defend the current product line, or indeed address the OP issue.

 

 

You're confused again, Frank. You say you're "worried how Leica will survive" but that "Solms is inward focussed trying to resolve supplier issues and making their P&L happen". You can't have it both ways. How can Leica survive without looking after its Profit and Loss sheet? ......

.

 

In my experience turning around a sick company is about :

  1. Engaging with the clients and being driven by them. It is about being easy to do business with.
  2. Separately of course the company does need to look internally at the P&L and focus their operations, suppliers, dealers, capital needs etc.

Just look at how Leica treats its dealers and the way it communicates to the client base. Do you see any area of potential improvement?

 

I have had a M8 since June 2009 (not January 2007 like you) and I too have had a great time with it so far. In fact it is so good I wonder why I would want the M9 and I have said so many times on this forum...I expect to go for a M10 at some point. I adore the M8 and the Leica lenses etc.

My dislike is when I need a lenshood, a battery, a filter or even a lens it seems to be a challenge working with a helpless dealer (s) that feels unsupported by Solms. In the past when I have needed a camera serviced or fixed I lose the use of the camera for months and get a hefty bill, so unlike you I am concerned for the longevity of the shutter......hope I am worrying for nothing.

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