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Yes, for example the original poster hasn't been on the forum for almost two years now. He's moved on too, apparently.

 

But more importantly, where is his old M8 camera now?

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Sold my M8 today

 

I'm so very dissapointed by Leica and the treatment of the M8 problems

 

I found out I simply didn't trust to take in not so good conditions, fearing it will be killed by condensation again. Then I also got a D700 which images in high iso blew away the M8 images, so the M8 was hardly used anymore.

 

It is a shame from the start, The IR issue was a joke eventhough solved with filters, then Leica decided we should pay for upgrades of things that should have been in there from the start. And then finally I also got the LCD-ring problem. All solved in the end but in the over 2 years I had it I had 3 M8 replacements and over 3 months missing the camera due to all the repairs...all that for an over 3500euro camera. Actually I should sue Leica for bringing on such a product and denying all the problems it had so I had to put in a lot of time in it I could have spend much better. Known construction problems, like the LCD dark ring, when you were outside waranty you could shake it and a expensive repair was required. I was furtunate that all happened during warany eventhough I had a big fight with Leica over the condensation issue resulting the insurance company having to pay for it.

 

In japan if something would happen like this, the management of the company would kill themselves out of shame.

 

I had M's for many, many years, but it ends now, it ends in disappointment

 

Now I'm looking for a nice compact camera...will I trust Leica again and buy an X1 eventhough the main specs are good...I'm not sure. It seems they made some stupid design mistakes again. What are these 3 holes on top of the camera doing, allowing water to come in maybe, to ruin the electronics? What is this stupid IS joke, a way to avoid having to pay for patents of others?

 

Actually take a pole of D600 owners regarding oil splatter on the sensor. It was deny deny deny clean deny some more. Finally pressure grew .

 

They are now replacing D600 shutters and came out with the D610.

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I noticed this thread had moved to the top of the heap in the forum. After reading the latest responses I'm sorta in WTF mode. The moderators should kill this. My 2 cents.

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I noticed this thread had moved to the top of the heap in the forum. After reading the latest responses I'm sorta in WTF mode. The moderators should kill this. My 2 cents.

 

It's here because the problem still exists! I have just been offered £800 (~ $1300) as a part-exchange allowance for my coffee stained M8 with 7400 actuations over 5.5 years. Considering I paid £2750 (~$4700) for it new I am less than impressed by this offer, particularly as s/h M8's are priced at £1350 ($2250) in London at present.

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It's here because the problem still exists! I have just been offered £800 (~ $1300) as a part-exchange allowance for my coffee stained M8 ....

No, different problem I'm afraid. The OP was about condensation, not coffee stained or failed LCD.

 

Pete.

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It's here because the problem still exists! I have just been offered £800 (~ $1300) as a part-exchange allowance for my coffee stained M8 with 7400 actuations over 5.5 years. Considering I paid £2750 (~$4700) for it new I am less than impressed by this offer, particularly as s/h M8's are priced at £1350 ($2250) in London at present.
So just keep using it. The camera is completely functional and the stain has been known to disappear spontaneously.

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Leica quality control again ! But no matter what people just keep defending it , I don't get it. I love the products, when it's actulallly correct the engineering is beautiful but consistency is vital too. Instead of this "never mind" approach perhaps some strong stand point re complaining might help or perhaps a boycot on buying, because if people just leave it as it is nothing will change

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Leica quality control again ! But no matter what people just keep defending it , I don't get it. I love the products, when it's actulallly correct the engineering is beautiful but consistency is vital too. Instead of this "never mind" approach perhaps some strong stand point re complaining might help or perhaps a boycot on buying, because if people just leave it as it is nothing will change

 

What do you mean?

 

If you are talking specifically about LCD displays, Leica doesn't make displays. They second source them from another manufacture. That makes it hard to impossible to control someone else's quality.

 

Secondly, Leica only buys in small quantities, which makes it impossible to leverage those suppliers to continue producing parts for small quantity runs or keep a supplier in business if they fail.

 

If Leica was a television manufacture and sold millions of TVs per year, that may be a different story. Then again, most people don't keep TVs 8 years and Panasonic, Sharp, and others probably will at least smile when they tell you you are SOL.

 

This is no long the tube age where equipment could be serviced for generations. Modern electronics simply doesn't have that lifespan any more and regulations like RoHS make that impossible. Unfortunately, we live in a throw-away society.

 

That is in part due to the fact that the sum of human knowledge now doubles every 18 months and is accelerating, which drives obsolescence at faster and faster rates.

Edited by Loren

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FWIW Canon told me that the AF motor on my 16-35 series 1 lens could not be fixed due to lack of parts. They said, "The service life of this product has been reached." I couldn't find any independent repair shop that had the part. The lens is about 10 years old but was replaced by a new version around 7 years ago. They did not offer me any deal to buy the new version. No, I am not happy about this either and probably will sell any lens and body shortly after it is discontinued.

 

So even a large company like Canon does not necessarily make provisions for repair very long after a product is discontinued. (Perhaps the AF motor is sourced from a supplier who no longer makes it.)

 

When Leica made the M8 they were very new at digital and most of the work was done out of house. I would not be surprised if Leica had given very little thought about maintaining an inventory of parts and it may never have occurred to them that many LCDs could develop a problem or that it would be impossible to source replacements in the future.

 

I would hope that Leica is more sophisticated about digital now, does better R&D and also plans better. Since it is selling a lot more digital cameras these days, perhaps it also has a bit more leverage with suppliers.

Edited by AlanG

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What do you mean?

 

If you are talking specifically about LCD displays, Leica doesn't make displays. They second source them from another manufacture. That makes it hard to impossible to control someone else's quality.

 

Secondly, Leica only buys in small quantities, which makes it impossible to leverage those suppliers to continue producing parts for small quantity runs or keep a supplier in business if they fail.

 

If Leica was a television manufacture and sold millions of TVs per year, that may be a different story. Then again, most people don't keep TVs 8 years and Panasonic, Sharp, and others probably will at least smile when they tell you you are SOL.

 

This is no long the tube age where equipment could be serviced for generations. Modern electronics simply doesn't have that lifespan any more and regulations like RoHS make that impossible. Unfortunately, we live in a throw-away society.

 

That is in part due to the fact that the sum of human knowledge now doubles every 18 months and is accelerating, which drives obsolescence at faster and faster rates.

 

I take your point but the failure rate of the M8 coffee stains seems to appear on this forum with such regularity that I think the failure rate must have been multiples of what Leica accounted for,if they bothered at all, but surely somevR and D was done with the supplier before they agreed to put them on what was their premium camera at the time. If Leica are happy to agree that these £5000 cameras are effectively throw away items and admit to customers that they are not likley to be able to service them within 5 years nor get spares then I think that's fine, but admit this when they are selling them and not pretend that it's going to be an investment. As an aside I see that 25% of people completing the Leica T survey wouldn't buy until they've seen what the quality is like. Surely the quality shouldn't be in question ? plenty of other factors yes! but if Leica supporters are having reservations about the quality then I'd be a bit concerned

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…. If Leica are happy to agree that these £5000 cameras are effectively throw away items ...

When were M8's ever £5,000 cameras?

I bought mine new in February 2007 and it cost £2,990 and as far as I'm aware the price never topped that (although I believe the M8.2 was around £3,800 when it was new).

 

Pete.

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When were M8's ever £5,000 cameras? I bought mine new in February 2007 and it cost £2,990 and as far as I'm aware the price never topped that (although I believe the M8.2 was around £3,800 when it was new).

 

Pete.

I was perhaps suggesting that this disposable approach is still a current one and applies to the current range unless the contributor is saying that there has been a total re-think re Leica's back up since the M8 days and that the MM and M240 are not subject to the short after care period and are not regarded as disposable then. If that's the case then at least that's an improvement. As I say I think some of the products are amazing but it's amazing what some people rush to defend if it's got a red dot on it. I honestly don't think people would have the same approach to other household items with the same issues, they'd take them back.

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I take your point but the failure rate of the M8 coffee stains seems to appear on this forum with such regularity that I think the failure rate must have been multiples of what Leica accounted for,if they bothered at all, but surely somevR and D was done with the supplier before they agreed to put them on what was their premium camera at the time. If Leica are happy to agree that these £5000 cameras are effectively throw away items and admit to customers that they are not likley to be able to service them within 5 years nor get spares then I think that's fine, but admit this when they are selling them and not pretend that it's going to be an investment. As an aside I see that 25% of people completing the Leica T survey wouldn't buy until they've seen what the quality is like. Surely the quality shouldn't be in question ? plenty of other factors yes! but if Leica supporters are having reservations about the quality then I'd be a bit concerned

 

1. Anyone's internet poll as to the actual number of failures is highly subjective at best. Leica knows, but you and I are not privy to that data. My serial # 3195170 seems fine, but I can't tell you how many are good or bad out of the universe of M8s.

 

Internet is a two edge sword. It is a venue for information, but is also is fertile ground for misinformation.

 

2. R & D really doesn't filter out defective products. That is done in qualification testing. Typically, the manufacture (i.e., Leica) will request the qual test and data performed by the supplier. Again, no one here is likely to know what those qual tests were nor their results.

 

Leica will most likely perform validation and life tests on the finished product. However, the coffee stain failure is going to be a hard test to design and execute to determine the likely failure rate and it is a pretty specific type of test.

 

3. Leica is no different than any other manufacture and are not going to specify a product lifetime. That is just silly.

 

RoHS took effect July of 2006. Anything manufactured and sold in Europe after that date is going to be subject to those regulations, which impact electronics and even coating on lenses.

 

The issue for electronics is that without lead in the solder those components soldered to PC boards tends to grow "whiskers" or "dendrites" that causes shorts that can not be fixed. That will limit the useable life span of consumer electronics to 15 to 20 years before a significant number of those units start to fail.

 

However, things become obsolete. The things you buy today are better products than their predecessors. That's why camera companies come out with new products.

 

Generally, the industry tries to keep items serviceable for about 10 years after production. White goods are typically 15 years. Cars tend to be an exception to that rule.

 

However, if a supplier goes out of business and the number of service spares required to service older products is small, then that's just the way the cookie crumbles. You can't fault Leica for LCD displays becoming obsolete. Most companies would simply tell you, "Sorry about your luck." Leica is making a good will gesture by offering an upgrade. That won't stop some people from whining.

 

All I can recommend is that those people buy something else if they are not satisfied.

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I was perhaps suggesting that this disposable approach is still a current one and applies to the current range unless the contributor is saying that there has been a total re-think re Leica's back up since the M8 days and that the MM and M240 are not subject to the short after care period and are not regarded as disposable then. If that's the case then at least that's an improvement. As I say I think some of the products are amazing but it's amazing what some people rush to defend if it's got a red dot on it. I honestly don't think people would have the same approach to other household items with the same issues, they'd take them back.

 

Nothing has changed as far as lifespan of consumer electronics. Welcome to the 21st century. I am sure Leica will do everything they reasonably can to maintain their products as long as they can, but Leica doesn't walk on water any more than Canon or Nikon does.

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FWIW Canon told me that the AF motor on my 16-35 series 1 lens could not be fixed due to lack of parts. They said, "The service life of this product has been reached." I couldn't find any independent repair shop that had the part. The lens is about 10 years old but was replaced by a new version around 7 years ago. They did not offer me any deal to buy the new version. No, I am not happy about this either and probably will sell any lens and body shortly after it is discontinued.

 

So even a large company like Canon does not necessarily make provisions for repair very long after a product is discontinued. (Perhaps the AF motor is sourced from a supplier who no longer makes it.)

 

When Leica made the M8 they were very new at digital and most of the work was done out of house. I would not be surprised if Leica had given very little thought about maintaining an inventory of parts and it may never have occurred to them that many LCDs could develop a problem or that it would be impossible to source replacements in the future.

 

I would hope that Leica is more sophisticated about digital now, does better R&D and also plans better. Since it is selling a lot more digital cameras these days, perhaps it also has a bit more leverage with suppliers.

 

You've been looking in vain for independent repair shopS to have a decade old lens, which works but does NOT HAVE AUTO-FOCUS made to work WITH Auto-Focus again???

Sorry to tell you, but you are in the wrong forum:

We don't want to know what Auto-Focus is. We don't care

Lenses without adaptors which cost more then 200$?? You must be kidding!

 

Your running joke (you keep mentioning that lens for a while now) that a modern super-wide lens without AF is worthless did not go unnoticed.

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...In japan if something would happen like this, the management of the company would kill themselves out of shame....

 

Toyota doesn't seem to have gotten the memo on this...
Apparently bringing great shame to your family is not what it used to be.

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You've been looking in vain for independent repair shopS to have a decade old lens, which works but does NOT HAVE AUTO-FOCUS made to work WITH Auto-Focus again???

Sorry to tell you, but you are in the wrong forum:

We don't want to know what Auto-Focus is. We don't care

Lenses without adaptors which cost more then 200$?? You must be kidding!

 

Your running joke (you keep mentioning that lens for a while now) that a modern super-wide lens without AF is worthless did not go unnoticed.

OK what do you offer me for this lens? Of course I still use it as I mostly shoot architecture. But I only used the lens as an example about lack of parts.

 

I thought you and others would understand that I am saying other companies have similar issues as Leica in terms of keeping spare parts on hand and/or having suppliers stop making parts for older products. At least Leica is offering some money for it. Unfortunately any expensive body from 2007 is not worth much today no matter who made it. The M8 is surely holding value better than a 1DsII or a Nikon D2X.

 

Regarding the coffee stain. Does anyone know what other products used the same LCD?

Edited by jaapv
ad-hominem removed

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… Regarding the coffee stain. Does anyone know what other products used the same LCD?

This thread is not about the the coffee stain, which has been discussed to death in others threads Other products using the same LCD were mentioned there although I don't recall now who they were. The Search function is your friend.

 

Pete.

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What do you mean?

 

If you are talking specifically about LCD displays, Leica doesn't make displays. They second source them from another manufacture. That makes it hard to impossible to control someone else's quality.

 

Secondly, Leica only buys in small quantities, which makes it impossible to leverage those suppliers to continue producing parts for small quantity runs or keep a supplier in business if they fail.

 

If Leica was a television manufacture and sold millions of TVs per year, that may be a different story. Then again, most people don't keep TVs 8 years and Panasonic, Sharp, and others probably will at least smile when they tell you you are SOL.

 

This is no long the tube age where equipment could be serviced for generations. Modern electronics simply doesn't have that lifespan any more and regulations like RoHS make that impossible. Unfortunately, we live in a throw-away society.

 

That is in part due to the fact that the sum of human knowledge now doubles every 18 months and is accelerating, which drives obsolescence at faster and faster rates.

 

 

 

The " ... That makes it hard to impossible to control someone else's quality..." argument is not the customers "problem" !

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