M9 & Possible Serious Shutter Problem?

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No sweeping statement there then, considering this seems to be the first post relating to any sort of problem that may seem circumstantially similar.

 

Steve

 

Well at least it has been continued into the OPs M9. Maybe it's just his!

[vanhulsenbeek]

Back to the OP's initial post: Why was the shutter pressed slowly and

is to be gained by that? I think that is asking for trouble - when firing many shots in sequence - as here we have a mechanical process that is triggering several electronic responses. Or am I wrong?

 

Or did the M9 in question have the shutter set to soft and/or discreet? It is well known that there may be trouble too when firing many shots in sequence.

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[hoppyman]

Dave there are several different topics you are talking about there.

 

Single should give one shot per press of course. I would retest in case the selector lever was slightly out of position. It should sit in the detent for single without moving.

 

Camera operation below freezing is dependant on battery temp. I would expect it to work fine with only ten minutes exposure to cold (again dependant on what temp you are starting at). If you are shooting a long sequence in cold weather then that could certainly cause the camera to stutter both as the buffer fills and the power drains. I really doubt that any lubricant temp would be an issue in the situation you describe. My M8 worked for single frames hanging around my neck for about an hour in -26 Celsius (worked better than I did, I froze my *ss off)). Once the cold soaked the battery it shut down. Another warmer battery fitted and it worked again.

 

Buffer filling would be dependant on:

Capture mode, DNG (compressed/uncompressed), JPG, both? also write speed of your SD card. A sequence of twenty or more shots is unusual operation for an M.Try again inside to eliminate the temp variable?

 

Pressing the shutter release slowly you should feel a slight detent in the travel. That is normal. At that point the exposure reading is locked. Selecting soft release means you get shutter actuation at that point instead of exposure lock. Test again looking through the finder. You should see a little red dot next to the speed readout.

[D&A]

HI All,

 

Before I respond to many of the postings since I posted last, I should mention something which I was a bit surprised to read.

 

Chris & Vanhulsenbeek....Although I very much appreicate your thoughts and suggestions regarding the shutter delay and pre click firing I described, I was a bit dismayed, regarding your commentary of my aquantence and his seemingly inept ability to set up his own camera, furthermore a $7000.00 one, I think the comments were a bit premature, to say the least. He a very long time accomplished professional photographer who not all that long ago suffered a severe accident, which among other things resulted in a brain hemerage and a major stroke. His congnitive abilities, motor skills and certain mental facalties were greatly affected and his incredable motivation to do what he loves, photography (as well as other things) is intense. I am there as often as I can to assist with this, and therefore was the nature of my helping him setting up his M9 among other things. He's quite an inspriation in his struggles to not give up on things in life, many tasks that most of us engage in, without a second thought. So please, its sometimes best to ask what the situation is, before possibly making assumptions and certain comments. I do realize you had no way of knowing. I say this simply in my respect for him and his difficult situation and others who may unfortunately be in similar circumstances.

 

Now feedback on everyone's comments & suggestions...

 

Knorb (Bart)....I think everyone who may be interested in even a better description of what I experienced should take note of what Knorb (Bart) wrote. His description of what he experienced mirrors mine and his observations correlates with mine. I think you also mentioned your experience was mostly with vertical orientated shots...and now that I think about it, the symptoms I described also occurred most often with vertical shots too.

 

Vanhulsenbeek...It isn't the black frame that was so much the issue, but the click prior to the shutter firing and then shutter hesitation before actually firing. See comments directly above. Also, when I say slow firing of the shutter, all I meant was normal pressing of the shutter button and normal firing...as opposed to machine gun style with rapid pressing of shutter button, shot after shot as fast as I can. It was just simple pressing of the shutter. I've been shooting Leicas since 1972 and the M8 since it was released, so it has nothing to do with technique. Just something that I hadn't experienced before in any body, especially the Leica digitals, including the other M9 I generally shot with.

 

Hoppyman...On-off selector was firmly on Single shot. Also remember, this phenomenon happed on a number of occasions. It truly wasn't very cold....and the camera each time was outside for maybe 1 minute to 5 minutes, if at that. I'm well aware and quite familiar with shutter detents, including those on the M8's and M9...this unfortunately wasn't about that.

 

Others pointed out about going from cold to warm environment...I'm quite familiar regarding that..but had nothing to do with sequence of events.

 

Shootest....I do not believe it was the buffer getting close or actually filled that caused this phenomenon. Sometimes it would happen where 15-20 shots were fired and then maybe 20 seconds without firing and when shooting resumed, one of the next 3 to 4 shots might exhibit the click and shutter delay before firing.

 

Again thank you all for your comments...and sometimes a sequence or a combinations of circumstances or conditions may be responsible for or give rise to a phenomenon as described, but otherwise generally not observed.

 

Dave (D&A)

Edited February 5, 2010 by D&A

[hoppyman]

Dave unless I am misreading your original post, you've reported that the camera while in the Single shot selection position is giving a continuous series of exposures for as long asd the button is depressed?

If that is the case (and you've rechecked) it must be repaired. I recommend that you assist your friend to return the camera to the original dealer, if possible. Given that these cameras are in extremely short supply and the purchase was a couple of months ago I suspect that the dealer will not be able to replace the camera immediately. I would talk to the dealer firstly of course.

 

I understand that Solms are turning around any M9s sent for repair as quickly as possible. I hope that this one is sorted out quickly and to your friend's satisfaction. Other camera functions are checked at the same time.

 

You can make an intitial contact with Customer Service directly if you choose to not return the camera via your dealer. In that instance you can download and complete a repair form and send it with the camera. This will allow you to detail the other concerns that you have reported as well. On receipt, Customer Service will log in your camera and it will then get functional tests to assess what work is required. So all camera functions should be checked and adjusted as needed as part of the service for you.

[chris_tribble]

Woops - hands up - I apologise.

 

That'll teach me to butt in without thinking.

[vanhulsenbeek]

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Chris & Vanhulsenbeek....Although I very much appreicate your thoughts and suggestions regarding the shutter delay and pre click firing I described, I was a bit dismayed, regarding your commentary of my aquantence and his seemingly inept ability....... I think the comments were a bit premature, to say the least. He a very long time accomplished professional photographer who not all that long ago suffered a severe accident-

 

.................................

 

Again thank you all for your comments...and sometimes a sequence or a combinations of circumstances or conditions may be responsible for or give rise to a phenomenon as described, but otherwise generally not observed.

 

Dave (D&A)

 

--Indeed, apologies, but - as your wrote - how could we have known?

 

--And your last sentence:

 

...sometimes a sequence or a combinations of circumstances or conditions may be responsible for or give rise to a phenomenon as described, but otherwise generally not observed..

 

is perhaps the wisest and most balanced description of how 'adverse events' in the use of the camera get to be known. But, similarly to those medical, these 'adverse events' should not always and necessarily give rise to panic or doubts about the working of our camera's. A 'hiccup' may be just that, no harm done, and functioning continues normally.

[D&A]

Hi,

 

Hoppyman, Yes just some miscommunication. The firing of each frame in singe shot mode was simply by pressing the shutter button "once" each time to fire a single frame, noting more.

 

I agree with everyone, sometime a camera(s), can occasionaly develop a "hiccup" under a not often encountered set of circumstances and just "one of those things". When it repeats itself more than 2-4x, sometimes its important to take notice and ask others if they've experienced the same things, in order to assertain if the camera in question is "one off" ...in that if its that particular body thats encountering it, rather than a possible many. I felt thats always the prudent route to go, as a first step and hence posting my observations. It's never to raise an alrm or pronoce anything untold about a particular camera. Sharing of info can only help one and all. It also helps assertain whether "said camera" need to just be watched for growing symtoms and a possible look at it by Solms, or something that maybe is just something any sample of M9 might encounter, if the circustances are "just right" to present itself.

 

Except for the number of consecustive shots taken at a given time (approx 20 give or take), the taking of shots with this particular M9 was no different in single shot ,mode that I wuld say most anyone would..focus, compose and fire and since the subject was at "infinity distance", just recompose and fire, recompose and fire...all perfectly normal and at a temp that wasn't really extreme or unusal by any standards. In fact as I mentioned in my last posting, Brett already has observed virtually the same thing in his M9 shooting consecutive shots in single more...and happens more likely when a vertically orientated shot is taken. All just observations to take note of, nothing more.

 

Thanks again.

 

DAve)

[35mmSummicron]

I'm not sure if this is along the same lines as what you are experiencing, but yesterday was the first time I took my M9 to use on a commercial job.

 

Shooting indoors, using Profoto strobes, uncompressed DNG only. When I shoot commercially, I shoot fast and I shoot a lot (read the entire day produced 800+frames, or about 30gigs) so you can imagine I run into the buffer a lot.

 

On maybe 2-3 occasions, I noticed I would click the shutter buttom, but there would be a slight delay before the actual release of the shutter - maybe a second's worth; enough to notice the camera didnt fire, but not long enough to pull the camera down and inspect the LCD.

 

I've never noticed anything like this when shooting with my M8 classic that I've owned for 3 years without fault, although I didn't feel overly concerned (yet) as there are definitely quirks and idiosyncrasies when using digital Leica's......

 

thoughts?

[D&A]

Hi 35mSummicron,

 

Yes!! What you described is in many ways exactly what I experiecned with my aquantences M9. My shutter delay wasn't as long as 1 second as your described..more of a slight pause or hesitation and then it fired...but not sure when you mentioned 1 second...if it was just a way of saying a noticable delay. IT does seem to be triggered by rapid firing many consecutive shots...and in my cae it was with the camera in single shot mode. Were you also firing in single shot mode? Just for reference I was shooting DNG only and often not even coming close to hitting the buffer. Thats why I tried taking temperature out of the equation and I've now heard from a few others who mentioned to me they experienced the same shutter firing delays when taken many consecutive frame.

 

Question...do you recall if your shutter hesitation was when shooting a vertically orientated shot? Secondly, I assume the shutter in each case evntually fired (as it did in mine). Out of all those times when there was a shuuter hesitation and the shutter fired, the resulting image (frame) turned out fine, except in one or two where a black (frame was recorded. How about you? Thanks!

 

Dave (D&A)

[vanhulsenbeek]

I

 

On maybe 2-3 occasions, I noticed I would click the shutter buttom, but there would be a slight delay before the actual release of the shutter - maybe a second's worth; enough to notice the camera didnt fire, but not long enough to pull the camera down and inspect the LCD...........I've never noticed anything like this when shooting with my M8 classic that I've owned for 3 years without fault, although I didn't feel overly concerned (yet) as there are definitely quirks and idiosyncrasies when using digital Leica's......

 

thoughts?

 

+ 1. Same experience with 200-300 per day ( shooting panorama's, mostly vertically) .

Not worried here, just thinking the buffer thing needs a good look-over for a next firmware version.

Perhaps firmware-hardware wise the M9, with its large files, touches the boundaries of its technical possibilities - now and then.

Edited February 5, 2010 by vanhulsenbeek

[steve70]

The camera is defective. There is a shutter issue of some sort. I experianced the same problem the Bart had and had to send the body back to Leica USA.

I actually did a posting on this issues about 3 weeks or so ago, and heard back from some M8 owners that had the same experience.

Leica USA returned the camera to me yeaterday, after about 3 weeks and they did not repair it because they said that they could not duplicate the problem!

Was I ticked?! You bet!. I ended up calling Mr. Roger Horn, President of Leica USA,

not only was he very apologetic, but spoke with the repair mannager and verified that the camera was not serviced.

He promptly instruced me to return the body back to Leica and to mark it to his attention and that he will exchange it for a brand new one.

 

He not only kept me from having a stroke, but turned a bad situation into a good one.

 

Anyway, it does sound as if you have a defective M9 body and I would suggest contacting Leica.

[vanhulsenbeek]

Anyway, it does sound as if you have a defective M9 body and I would suggest contacting Leica.

 

Only if I have a black file to show, and I do not have any.

[35mmSummicron]

D&A / vanhulsenbeek:

 

I would describe the "shutter hesitation" as very brief....maybe not a FULL one second, but definitely long enough to know that the shutter didn't actually fire the moment you pressed the full release down, and until when it actually does. I don't think I have any black frames as a result. I was shooting both vertical and horizontal hand holding so I'm not sure if in my case that made a difference. And if I recall correctly it happened usually in the middle of a burst of images IE: I take few shots just fine, the camera is busy writing and *click-delay-fire*, and everything back to normal.

 

So far I would describe my experience as a quirk from simply not-optimized firmware (see all the issues with SD format speeds etc.; I feel many of these problems are related) and am not overly concerned with possible hardware issues.

 

Definitely want to know if others are experiencing this though--what the true cause is and what fix!

 

andy

[vanhulsenbeek]

 

So far I would describe my experience as a quirk from simply not-optimized firmware (see all the issues with SD format speeds etc.; I feel many of these problems are related) and am not overly concerned with possible hardware issues.

 

 

Andy,

 

I am totally with you there. +1!

[Knorp]

Hi 35mSummicron,

 

Yes!! What you described is in many ways exactly what I experiecned with my aquantences M9. My shutter delay wasn't as long as 1 second as your described..more of a slight pause or hesitation and then it fired...but not sure when you mentioned 1 second...if it was just a way of saying a noticable delay. IT does seem to be triggered by rapid firing many consecutive shots...and in my cae it was with the camera in single shot mode. Were you also firing in single shot mode? Just for reference I was shooting DNG only and often not even coming close to hitting the buffer. Thats why I tried taking temperature out of the equation and I've now heard from a few others who mentioned to me they experienced the same shutter firing delays when taken many consecutive frame.

 

Question...do you recall if your shutter hesitation was when shooting a vertically orientated shot? Secondly, I assume the shutter in each case evntually fired (as it did in mine). Out of all those times when there was a shuuter hesitation and the shutter fired, the resulting image (frame) turned out fine, except in one or two where a black (frame was recorded. How about you? Thanks!

 

Dave (D&A)

 

Hi Dave,

 

let me add that I got these "black shots" mostly in horizontal orientation and I'm quite sure they occurred every time the shutter hesitated.

 

Kind regards.

[Knorp]

Only if I have a black file to show, and I do not have any.

 

Hi Sander,

 

not to worry: you can have one of mine, if you want ...

 

All the best.

[vanhulsenbeek]

Hi Sander,

 

not to worry: you can have one of mine, if you want ...

 

All the best.

 

Let us know what you do with them, and with your camera

[D&A]

Thanks all and thats why I originally posted...in order to find out if my aquantances cameras issue (or what was noticed)...was a "one-off", or others have encountered it. Apparently there are some and so far a few things can suggested from what others have reported....

 

1. The shutter delay may happen more of in vertical orientation, but not always.

 

2. Even though the shutter fires after the initial hesitation, the resulting shot (frame), could be a black (blank) frame or could not. In this regard its randon.

 

3. It seems to happen most often as a fairly sizable series of shots is being fired...and not always is the buffer hit...but the buffer is obviously filling up and camera actively processing.

 

4. Does seem to be temperature dependent.

 

OK, this is conjecture and certainly without any statistical evidence, one way or another...just simply an observation that some have encountered. yet worth mulling over and keeping an eye on.

 

It may just be the cameras processing portion is getting confused as its processing large # of shots and sort of instructing the camera to "wait" or not accept additonal files added by firing more...but then after thinking or doing something (the cameras processor)..it goes ahead and lets the shutter fire! As to whether the frame is usable or a black one may depend on a number of factors. Likewise the phenominon may just be mechanical in nature....or thirdly something else..which maybe just be an inherient gremlin that may or may not be necessary to be looked at by Leica. For now, its just about being aware that its there and doesn't seem to change or get worse, I suppose.

 

DAve (D&A)

Edited February 5, 2010 by D&A

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[Jay101]

Oh wow that's scary misinformation.

 

... I'll be taking it to New Zealand in October and will probably be able to report with more authority then.

 

NZ in October average range is 7 to 19 © so unless you're going up some mountains, you'd expect that to be well within operating range of any camera.