adan Posted February 10, 2010 Share #61 Posted February 10, 2010 Advertisement (gone after registration) There seems to be a lot of in-camera processing going on to make the full-frame sensor work. Am I the only one bothered by this? The noisy corners at high-iso and the color issues are troublesome. Well, it's kinda like waking up up when you're old. You ache, and things look blurry, and it's hard to find the coffee pot - but it is better than not waking up at all. (haven't quite gotten there yet myself, but I know the time will come...) Am I troubled by the processing needed and the corner noise (and maybe red edges) that result? Sometimes. Is it worse than the alternative(s)? "Turning lens recognition off is not an option." as you yourself say. Lugging around an SLR with no split image manual focusing is not for me. Buying a 21 f/1.4 (if it proves to need less in the way of corrections) is expensive, and it's also bulky - but you do get the extra speed. To borrow from Winston Churchill: "The M9 is the worst digital camera I've ever used, except for all the others." Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted February 10, 2010 Posted February 10, 2010 Hi adan, Take a look here Red Edge--Which lenses?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
innerimager Posted February 10, 2010 Share #62 Posted February 10, 2010 I poked my head out the front door and tested my 21/1.4 against the snow, and "look ma, no red edge"! f1.4 f5.6 f11 If anything, the corners are slightly bluer as part of the vignetting. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
innerimager Posted February 10, 2010 Share #63 Posted February 10, 2010 (edited) Buying a 21 f/1.4 (if it proves to need less in the way of corrections) is expensive, and it's also bulky - but you do get the extra speed. Don't mean to tempt you Andy, but that's not all you get with this stellar lens! Edited February 10, 2010 by innerimager Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
adan Posted February 10, 2010 Share #64 Posted February 10, 2010 (edited) Well, I see a teeny amount of some magenta on the left, mostly where the vignetting starts to kick in - but much less obvious and less defined than the red I get with my 21 pre-ASPH f/2.8 (see first page of this thread). I'm sure it is totally negligible with any subject other than white-on-white-on-white. I guess I also still wonder about camera-to-camera variations. Would love to see what a non-Summilux 21 or 24 does on your specific camera, just as a control. Edited February 10, 2010 by adan Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
innerimager Posted February 10, 2010 Share #65 Posted February 10, 2010 I have only a 24 elmarit. Would it help you to see this? Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
innerimager Posted February 10, 2010 Share #66 Posted February 10, 2010 Here goes with the 24 elmarit. Perhaps a bit more? I'll let you judge....Peter f2.8 f5.6 f11 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
UliWer Posted February 10, 2010 Share #67 Posted February 10, 2010 Advertisement (gone after registration) @innerimager: Did you use automatic white-balance, or did you correct it in any way? My impression is that the red shift is very dependant on the setting of white balance. If you used auto WB, you could try to move the tint away from the red and/or reduce Kelvin both just by a margin, so that the last traces of the red shift would disappear. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
innerimager Posted February 10, 2010 Share #68 Posted February 10, 2010 No, I use "cloudy" so that K would be constant, and I didn't want to do anything to hide any shift, rather wanted to show any that was there.So no processing of any kind, just converted to JPG in C1 pro, and resized to 800 pixels best...Peter Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
adan Posted February 10, 2010 Share #69 Posted February 10, 2010 Looking back at a borrowed 24 Elmarit test I did a week or so ago (and allowing for other variables) I guess your camera and mine correspond fairly closely - a touch of red. Guess I'll ship Leica a couple of M9 frames with my 21 and see what they say. It may well be that Leica's centering standards were a bit looser in 1982, or that my lens has drifted somehow over time in aligment and needs a rebuild - or a replacement. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
noah_addis Posted February 10, 2010 Author Share #70 Posted February 10, 2010 The 24 Elmarit and 21 'Lux both look great to me, much cleaner than at least my copy of the 21 Elmarit Asph. I will do my test tomorrow once the snow lets up. It's still coming down quite hard here... Is it worse than the alternative(s)? That's really the big question, isn't it? I guess I just feel like after spending $14k on cameras (and lots more in lenses over the years) that the images shouldn't have such flaws. I guess this is how early M8 users must have felt, but I held back and by the time I got my M8 I was fully aware of the need for filters, etc. I know the color shifts can be fixed in post, but that's not the point. I often have to process many images at once, sometimes on tight deadlines, and I don't need any extra work. If it's impossible to fix with certain lenses, we should have been told that by Leica in advance. Especially lenses in the current Leica Line-up. If it can be fixed in firmware, it needs to be done soon. If not, I want a big discount on a 21 'Lux. Maybe give me the full retail price of my 21 Elmarit Asph as trade-in and I'll pay the difference:D Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alnitak Posted February 11, 2010 Share #71 Posted February 11, 2010 The 24 Elmarit and 21 'Lux both look great to me, much cleaner than at least my copy of the 21 Elmarit Asph. I will do my test tomorrow once the snow lets up. It's still coming down quite hard here... That's really the big question, isn't it? I guess I just feel like after spending $14k on cameras (and lots more in lenses over the years) that the images shouldn't have such flaws. I guess this is how early M8 users must have felt, but I held back and by the time I got my M8 I was fully aware of the need for filters, etc. I know the color shifts can be fixed in post, but that's not the point. I often have to process many images at once, sometimes on tight deadlines, and I don't need any extra work. If it's impossible to fix with certain lenses, we should have been told that by Leica in advance. Especially lenses in the current Leica Line-up. If it can be fixed in firmware, it needs to be done soon. If not, I want a big discount on a 21 'Lux. Maybe give me the full retail price of my 21 Elmarit Asph as trade-in and I'll pay the difference:D I guess at the moment I am patient. Perhaps I took a more "eyes wide open approach," or perhaps its because I have made my career in technology, but I am comfortable with my status as an early adopter and accept that I will pay some price for that. In this case, the price is some performance issues (image review, card writing speeds, buffer clearing, etc.) and the occasional red edge issue. I am not disappointed that a lot of work is done in the camera. I believe that every camera manufacturer does that already, and its just a question of whether we know it or not. It's well known that Nikon's NEF files are not true raw data from the sensor, for example, and I'm pretty comfortable asserting that no manufacturer's raw data is truly raw. In the case of Leica and the M system, that manipulation must be a bit more intense because of the limitations imposed by the camera design and its short distance from the lens flange to CCD/film plane, but that's also the key reason that the M system is what it is: small, compact, lightweight, etc. I will be disappointed like you if they can't correct the red edge issue in software for lenses in the existing lineup. I don't care about discontinued lenses or third party lenses. No manufacturer would be likely to offer that kind of support, and Leica should be no different in this regard. If they cannot fix it in software for existing lenses like the 18/3.8 and 21/2.8, then I would expect some type of credit towards a trade-in for a model that would work--i.e., the WATE or the 21 'lux. We shall see. It can't be too long before that firmware update is released, based on rumors floating around on the net. Jeff Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ho_co Posted February 11, 2010 Share #72 Posted February 11, 2010 Peter-- May I suggest that you check some RGB readings around some of the images? Exact values aren't that important, but the difference in each of the three colors from that at the center. Both your lenses look awfully good, but my monitor shows some cyan in the corners of some of the images and some magenta in the center of some others. To my eye, your lenses could be removed from the 'red edge' list. Since the images are this good, the color shift is so small that a monitor may not be the best way to judge it. Seeing hard numbers with a standard procedure might help to get a better idea. And establishing such a measuring procedure could let others compare their results with the same lenses, without the confusion of posting images. Just an idea. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtomalty Posted February 11, 2010 Share #73 Posted February 11, 2010 I'd second Howards request to see some basic R,G,and B numbers. To my eye, I don't really see any neutral areas on both sets of images. I feel I am seeing a subtle drift from magenta/red to green/cyan across the frame. Certainly nothing that would show up in any real world shooting but there nonetheless. In your f11 sample with the 21/1.4 there is a pretty clear shift across the sensor going from magenta at the top left to green/cyan on the right bottom This 'style' of color shift has been quite present in some digital backs when used in conjunction with certain large format lenses on technical cameras. With Phase One there is a simple software remedy in Capture One called Lens Cast Correction. One places an opaque disk of plexi over the lens and makes an exposure. This exposure is then processed in Capture One in the LCC tab and after neutralizing and is then applied to all similar images using the same lens to subtract the cast. Works like a charm and can be saved as a preset. Would be excellent if a similar treatment could be created for M8/M9 files Mark Mark Tomalty Photography Montreal Canada Travel Landscape Stock FineArt Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ynp Posted February 11, 2010 Share #74 Posted February 11, 2010 Konica Dual 21-35mm. shows much less red corner problem at both settings than my 21mm. Elmarit asph. Yevgeny Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandymc Posted February 11, 2010 Share #75 Posted February 11, 2010 With Phase One there is a simple software remedy in Capture One called Lens Cast Correction.One places an opaque disk of plexi over the lens and makes an exposure. This exposure is then processed in Capture One in the LCC tab and after neutralizing and is then applied to all similar images using the same lens to subtract the cast. Works like a charm and can be saved as a preset. Would be excellent if a similar treatment could be created for M8/M9 files It's called CornerFix. Sandy Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
innerimager Posted February 11, 2010 Share #76 Posted February 11, 2010 I did check RGB values in an overall way and found that blues were about "9" more than red consistently throughout the images across the frame and up and down. But it was a very quick look at samples from edges and corners and the middle. These images can be downloaded (right click on them) and anyone is welcome to open them in PS and have a go! I'm content, based on these tests, and more so on actual images I have taken, that it's not a problem for me. best....Peter Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alnitak Posted February 11, 2010 Share #77 Posted February 11, 2010 I did check RGB values in an overall way and found that blues were about "9" more than red consistently throughout the images across the frame and up and down. But it was a very quick look at samples from edges and corners and the middle. These images can be downloaded (right click on them) and anyone is welcome to open them in PS and have a go! I'm content, based on these tests, and more so on actual images I have taken, that it's not a problem for me. best....Peter The bluish tint makes sense given its wet snow. The shots looked good to me, and your numbers seem to confirm that. Jeff Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtomalty Posted February 11, 2010 Share #78 Posted February 11, 2010 It's called CornerFix. Very impressive, Sandy. I had given it a quick once over some time ago but, obviously, hadn't used it properly. I just ran a half dozen problem files through CornerFix and was blown away with the results. If I want to retroactively correct a load of files would you rate lighting conditions or aperture as a more important factor to get right as I attempt to build some new profiles to manage these older files? Is there an online FAQ where i can source some info so i don;t have to pester you with questions that must have been already answered many times already? Anyhow, thanks again for making this tool available. Mark Mark Tomalty Photography Montreal Canada Travel Landscape Stock FineArt Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
innerimager Posted February 11, 2010 Share #79 Posted February 11, 2010 Well, I see a teeny amount of some magenta on the left, mostly where the vignetting starts to kick in - but much less obvious and less defined than the red I get with my 21 pre-ASPH f/2.8 (see first page of this thread). I'm sure it is totally negligible with any subject other than white-on-white-on-white. I guess I also still wonder about camera-to-camera variations. Would love to see what a non-Summilux 21 or 24 does on your specific camera, just as a control. The bluish tint makes sense given its wet snow. The shots looked good to me, and your numbers seem to confirm that. Jeff Yes, whether from the moisture or some sky reflection, the snow has a mildly blue cast. I did not white balance so as to leave the output "as is" for the "test". best...Peter Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandymc Posted February 11, 2010 Share #80 Posted February 11, 2010 If I want to retroactively correct a load of files would you rate lighting conditions or apertureas a more important factor to get right as I attempt to build some new profiles to manage these older files? Is there an online FAQ where i can source some info so i don;t have to pester you with questions that must have been already answered many times already? Usually, the most important factor is aperture rather than lighting, unless the lighting is something really unusual e.g., some types of industrial fluorescent light give odd results. However most people find that one profile, usually at a relatively small aperture (say f/8) will work. As regards an FAQ, there's one in the PDF file included in the CornerFix download. Other than that, searching this forum is your best bet. Regards, Sandy Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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