M8 shutter fault - get Leica to repair it for free

[mby]

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Nice picture of an MP with cloth shutter...

[Guest PhotoWebb.co.uk]

I wouldn't worry about that - it's clear that they are referring to all M models, including the digital ones, from the text, and from the page it is on.

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[farnz]

The point is simply that my camera has not lived up to their claims by a long shot. There is a matter of integrity here on the part of Leica. It would not be right for them to avoid responsibility in the way you are suggesting - do you think?

 

In what they say they are setting an expectation that the camera will be extremely durable and long lasting with me, as a potential customer - On that basis I purchased an M8 and my camera has not lived up to that expectation.

 

Daniel

Daniel,

 

It's not about whether I think Leica should act in a certain way although I would hope that Leica would 'do the right thing'. If you make a legal claim then it will be in the hands of Leica's lawyers and it is the lawyers who are likely to produce the above arguments since that's what they're employed to do, not Leica.

 

FWIW I think that you are deliberately taking an overly simplistic view because it benefits your position to do so. Others have already pointed out that yours is a second hand camera of which neither you nor Leica has any information on how it was treated before it came into your hands. You've stated that your camera has been well looked after but in this context I regret that your statement is meaningless. For example, if it's been dropped there may be no external clues yet it might have had an effect on the shutter - who knows?

 

I support your attempts to have the shutter repaired at no cost but to threaten legal action in the way you've described - and perhaps pursue that course - would be, to my mind, unwise.

 

Pete.

[pgk]

Just to be clear the camera has been well looked after.

OK. But how do Leica know this without having seen the camera.

 

And what percentage of Leica M8 shutters have failed? To claim a manufacturing defect you need hard facts whether you like it or not. Claims based on internet forum posts are unlikely to get you very far, and as for lasting a lifetime, well caveats apply such as using in accordance with manufacturer's recommendations, periodic servicing and repairs when required.

 

There actually may even even be a percentage of failing shutter units, but what percentage is 'acceptable' would be a very interesting question, as would the precise cause - I know that in the past some manufacturers have applied a percentage return to equipment and have repaired rather than replaced the cameras when the percentage became too great - I'm doubtful that this would often apply in the case of an expensive unit.

 

In all honesty Daniel, if you'd taken a rather more softly, softly approach and taken your camera back to the dealer with a covering letter to Leica telling them of your concerns having read about some shutter failures, you'd be in a far better position to criticise their actions if a hefty charge was being made. I understand your frustration but realism has to be used in such cases - I personally would not use the forum in the first instance. My M8 developed the 'line' problem a few months after being repaired after its drop. It was repaired promptly by Leica in Solms with no quibble whatsoever - but you are right, it was expensive to ship it to them; so be it.

[stunsworth]

And what percentage of Leica M8 shutters have failed?

 

We don't know. The only people who do know are Leica and probably the shutter manufacturer. An internet forum is a good place for an individual to vent their frustration, but it's not the place to guage how widespread a problem is.

 

To demand that Leica repair the shutter for free without them even seeing the camera, and then start a thread like this _before_ they've even responded could - IMHO - prove counter-productive. Especially given that you have not owned the camera from new, and have no idea of how it was treated before you bought it.

 

If I had been in your position I would have approached the dealer first, if they then said the camera is out of warranty and they didn't want to help, I would have asked Leica to have a look at the camera explaining that you think the shutter fault is a manufacturing issue and would they consider repairing at for free or at a discounted rate. To spout the old cliche, you attract more wasps with honey than with vinegar.

 

By the way, did you approach the dealer with the problem, and if so what was their response?

[delander †]

Daniel have you checked the number of shutter actuations? The unique ID number of an image (which is shown in Adobe Bridge for example) is the number of shutter actuations in hexadecimal. If the number is low it might help your cause.

 

The fact that Daniel has published his intended course of action on this site makes it a more serious issue for Leica, had he just pursued his grievance privately then it could have been settled privately, that option is now gone.

 

If it went to court on the basis of how many M8s have suffered shutter failures before the rated number then only Leica would have that info. They could be asked to provide it in court.

 

Jeff

[SJP]

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I just did a search for "shutter fault" and as far as I can see there have been about 5 reports of M8 shutter fault in total on this forum. As a guestimate there are 20.000 M8's out there, maybe half of the M8 owners are involved with this forum or take 5000 to be on the safe side. That would boil down to 0.1 % failure rate over ~3 years which is pretty good I think. Even if it was 1% that would still not constitute a poor design (at least not in court). Also this shutter is used in the R8/R9 and I do not have the impression that it is considered unreliable in those camera's. There was a survey of no. of shutter actuations of the M8's so far and it seemed to be in the 20-30k ballpark, some over 60k actuations.

 

So in terms of manufacturing quality I do not see how anyone can claim that the M8 shutter is no good.

 

Nevertheless I can see that a failed shutter on a out-of-warranty camera is a major source of concern. "Will Leica repair for free or not?" that is the question. I would hope so but I do not see how it could be a legal obligation. If the shutter failure rate is much higher (which I do not believe) then matters would be totally different.

[stunsworth]

Stephen, another point is that if you want someone to do something for you, legal action should be your last resort rather than your opening gambit. Then ask yourself who can afford the better lawyers.

[SJP]

Agreed, but I felt it was worthwhile pointing out that the case may not be strong if it would be based on claims of shutter unreliability.

[bill]

Forgive me if I recap - after 5 pages (approximately 20% of which appear to be taken up with Daniel's signature) I understand the situation to be:

 

A shutter fault has developed on a secondhand, out of warranty camera. The OP has instituted threats of litigation to Leica prior to making any attempt to understand the relevant consumer legislation or to resolve the matter with or through the supplying dealer.

 

The OP has also chosen to publicise his actions, thereby "trying" Leica in a public forum. The OP's view of the reasonableness of his case is based upon "...many, many..." reports of shutter failures, with no statistical evidence to back up any claim that the failure rate is higher than would be normal in a camera of this type. Leica sales literature is cited, evidencing a lack of understanding of what constitutes "puffery", or "invitation to treat".

 

This action is inappropriate, ill-advised and smacks of a personal crusade. I struggle to understand this type of behaviour.

 

Regards,

 

Bill

[crm.ecosse]

Wake me up when this is over please.

 

I'm off to sleep as well!

Edited February 5, 2010 by crm.ecosse

[Pangur Ban]

A long thread but the thing that bothers me somewhat is the reference to Shutter Fault. My M8 displayed this message and was returned to Solms and repaired under warrantly, but it appears that the fault lay elsewhere in the circuitry - it manifested itself with that error message but it doesn't necessarily follow that it was actually a problem with the shutter.

 

As with many issues, the underlying causes may be more complex and unless Leica reveal their full database of production and repairs (I wouldn't if I were them) then no external to the company is in a position to make judgement calls.

 

I think the phrase caveat emptor applies here - which is why I was careful to buy my secondhand M8 with a decent warranty.

[delander †]

Really this is an issue between the OP and the shop he purchased it from and the rights he has under the sale of goods act.

 

There is a wider discussion concerning what Leica or any other company can say or write about their products in sales literature. Not everyone is a marketing guru or lawyer, and some of the statements Leica make in their literature are rather up front and they should not be surprised if the layman takes them as true. Perhaps they should look more carefully at what they are saying now they are selling electronic products.

 

I also wonder if the tone of reponses in this thread are not only influenced by our affection for Leica but also what we do for a living. My experience is that those working in retail often jump to the defence of the retailer in issues like this.

 

Jeff

[proenca]

First of all, sorry for the OP - its a bummer when something that is not supposed to, happen to us.

 

But in the end of the day, its bound to happen to someone. Isnt fair that it was to us, but oh well.

 

Leica are known for their extreme reliability and we can see that in film M's that that over 50 years old, had a hard life and with a CLA every now and then, keep working like a clock.

 

M8 is a different beast - its digital. And with everything digital, its a recipe for disaster.

 

STILL - it is quite reliable but lets not forget that it was Leica first attempt to create a Digital M with all the problems that come with it - technology and solutions not mature enough, others that were clearly "rushed out the door", etc.

 

But even STILL ! Its a work horse. Honestly, I bought my M8 couple months it was out, in Singapore - so I have it for almost 3 years now.

 

I do NOT baby my cameras at all.

 

To the point that my M8 has seen more sweaty hands because either I'm hiking, trekking or walking than a porn star.

 

My M8 went to countless beaches, used on sandstorms, rainy days, p-o-u-r-i-n-g days, jungles, sub artic region, Africa.. you name it.

 

It has fallen to the floor more than I can remember ( have quite a few dings to prove it ) and honestly, I abused it.

 

Saltwater ? It happened to have a few LITERS splash on my M8 QUITE OFTEN, not a few splashes once.

 

And you know what ? Apart from the scratches, the dings, the marks... it ok.

 

Works beautifully, my shutter works, everything works.

 

Takes the same good bloody pictures since I first bought it.

 

Sorry you had a lemon. Happens. If it happens to mine ( which should at the rate I treat her ) at least I know why.

 

But Leica isnt this or that because it produced a couple of bad cameras. Happens even to Rolls Royce and they cost a bit more than Leica

[Guest PhotoWebb.co.uk]

The OP has instituted threats of litigation to Leica prior to making any attempt to understand the relevant consumer legislation or to resolve the matter with or through the supplying dealer.

 

Bill

 

I'm pretty sure I've made it clear that I have not threatened Leica with legal action. In fact if you read my posts you'll see that I have acknowledged that the legal responsibility for the repair falls with my retailer.

 

I have asked Leica to repair the camera - that's it!

 

Daniel

[jsrockit]

Daniel, the best thing you could do is to stop posting in this thread because it is just a bunch of fanboys coming to Leica's rescue using figures that are equally as suspect as any figures we are using to assume that the shutter in the M8 is a defect and not normal. The other thing is that many people on this forum have money to burn and the cost this type of repair is the equivilent of you and I buying a burger from a fast food place. I can sympathize with you, but most probably won't.

[stunsworth]

Daniel, the best thing you could do is to stop posting in this thread because it is just a bunch of fanboys coming to Leica's rescue using figures that are equally as suspect as any figures we are using to assume that the shutter in the M8 is a defect and not normal.

 

Actually most people have been saying that they _don't_ know the failure rate. Compare that to the original poster's statement that....

 

"I think that there is sufficient grounds for proving that this is in fact a defect of the design and/or manufacture of the camera"

[Guest PhotoWebb.co.uk]

Actually most people have been saying that they _don't_ know the failure rate. Compare that to the original poster's statement that....

 

"I think that there is sufficient grounds for proving that this is in fact a defect of the design and/or manufacture of the camera"

 

Fair point Steve. I do think it happens more than it should but my words were a little rash perhaps given that I am somewhat angry about the failure of my camera.

 

Anyway, the repair is far too expensive - it could be months before I could have my camera back working - that hurts - especially when I expect the camera to last a lot longer - and I think I have every right to expect this.

 

You guys might be loaded and just shell out €700 on a repair but I am not in such a fortunate position.

 

Cheers

 

Daniel

[jsrockit]

Actually most people have been saying that they _don't_ know the failure rate. Compare that to the original poster's statement that....

 

"I think that there is sufficient grounds for proving that this is in fact a defect of the design and/or manufacture of the camera"

 

I see. There are two camps here... one's that believe that this topic comes up too frequently around the web (not just this site) so it must be a defect and other's that believe that it is an issue due to misuse. I'm pessimistic by nature, so I tend to believe the former.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[AlanG]

I think when you are unhappy with a product, it is always a good idea to go public.

 

Unless someone does a scientific survey, we won't accurately know the likelihood of any M8 needing any specific repair. However some people don't need to see more than a few reported examples of shutters failing in the same catastrophic way in order to be concerned. This seems reasonable to me.

 

In your case, I don't think trying to prove the failure rate is relevant. If your camera failed and you are unhappy with Leica's response of wanting to charge 600-700 Euros, complaining publicly is a good idea to inform everyone as to what to expect. If people know the potential costs of repairs prior to buying a used M8 or new M9, they can take this into consideration before buying one.

 

Whereas if your out of warranty camera failed, yet Leica agreed to replace the shutter at no charge due to a low activation count, that too would be worth stating publicly.

 

I have a number of electronic flashes made by Paul C. Buff Company. Their parts and repair prices are extremely reasonable and service is quick. (E.g. a new flash tube is only $35.00 vs. $240 or more for similar flash tubes in other brands.) He states that they don't try to make much money off of repairs or parts but consider it a service to keep customers happy. His policy really works for me.

 

As to posts being beneficial - I had a troubling intermittent steering issue on my BMW Z4 since new. It was only after it was out of warranty that I found posts on the web where others had the same problem and how they got BMW to fix it. (Apparently BMW changed the mechanism after the first model year - so BMW knew about the problem all along and didn't recall the cars.) Armed with this "evidence" BMW replaced my steering mechanism out of warranty at no charge.

 

The web is the consumer's friend.

Edited February 5, 2010 by AlanG