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Guest PhotoWebb.co.uk

M8 shutter fault - get Leica to repair it for free

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I have often wondered why they actually downgraded the specification of M8.2 in terms of shutter speed....could there be another reason, perhaps due to reliability?

 

I doubt it. I believe they slowed down the speed the shutter blades travel at to reduce the noise, and that in turn means a slower shutter speed.

 

Personally I thought the M8.2 was much quieter than a standard M8.

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Guest PhotoWebb.co.uk

Hi everyone

 

I now have the information I need to proceed from a legal standpoint. Here is what I have been advised to do:

 

Dear Mr Webb

 

Your rights will be under the Sale of Goods Act. Your camera should be of satisfactory quality , even though you bought it second hand , as mentioned it should be durable. A second hand item still has to be of satisfactory quality. If you paid for your camera by credit card or partly by credit card then you would have a like claim against your card issuer. The warranty supplied by the shop is in addition to your statutory rights and so the fact that it was only valid for 6 months is irrelevant to your present claim. Your remedy is that the camera should be repaired at no cost to you. Any argument that may be put forward that you cannot expect a leica camera to last that long could be defeated by the quote from the Leica brochure that you have provided.

 

I hope this clarifies the situation.

Please do not hesitate to contact me for further clarification or advice.

Yours sincerely

 

Looks like my retailer will be getting an e-mail tonight to progress this. Presumably they will then have to make a claim against Leica or foot the bill themselves?

 

Regards

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i really don't understand why u do all this hazzle - instead of contacting leica directly at a top level????

they are always willing to help loyal customers!!!

cheers

andy

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Guest PhotoWebb.co.uk

I've mailed Leica tonight, here's what I said:

 

Ursula

 

Thank you for getting back to me.

 

I have taken some time to consider my position and must say that I find the charge to have my camera repaired to be very expensive and, frankly, unacceptable.

 

Based upon the marketing material that was produced to entice customers to invest in a Leica M8 I am surprised that the camera has developed a fault and that you are expecting me to pay for the repair. The specific piece that I refer to is from your Leica M brochure, which I read many times before finally investing my own money in the camera system, where you state:

 

"Not many things last a lifetime. A Leica M often lasts longer

 

Anyone taking photographs is normally at the heart of life. In the heat or cold, in the rain or dust. The M needs to be durable, reliable and robust under all conceivable conditions. The question of durability is always a top priority in the development of a new M model. This is why only premium materials are used for its body : brass for the top and base plate and a high-strength magnesium alloy for the chassis. The digital technology components are also carefully selected to with- stand years of use. Sophisticated production techniques and painstaking assembly guarantee decades of reliable operation, allowing photographers to enjoy their Leica M for as long as possible. For a lifetime in fact, often even by the next generation."

 

On these grounds I would like you to repair the camera free of charge so that it is returned to me in full working order.

 

The defects that I am experiencing with the camera are:

Attention Shutter Fault message - repeated shutter actuations not driven by user input - camera unuseable

Flaky performance when previewing photographs on the rear screen (unpredictable behaviour not in accordance with user input) eg. zooms a picture instead of going to the next

Occasional crashes which make the camera appear to be 'dead' that can only be stopped by removal and reinsertion of the battery

The necessity to use infrared filters to obtain correct colour balance

 

Could you please confirm that you are happy to repair the camera free of charge and I will send it in for repair.

 

I understand that I can request that the retailer, from whom I purchased the camera, pay for all repairs under the Sale of Goods Act but I wanted to give Leica the opportunity to rectify the issue with me directly before involving a third party.

 

Could I ask that if you are unable to satisfy my request you refer it to either the current CEO or Stefan Daniels to respond to me as I am currently writing an article on how Leica deal with these types of issues and want to give them the opportunity to respond before I publish.

 

I look forward to your response and hope that Leica live up to their reputation for standing by their products and offering a first class after sales service.

 

Kind regards

 

Daniel Webb

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...

I hope this clarifies the situation.

...

 

No, it does not.

 

You better ask your "legal standpoint", if he gives warranty on his statement. It is certainly not "of satisfactory quality", even if it is not a "second hand item".

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... The necessity to use infrared filters to obtain correct colour balance ...

David,

 

Just how do you expect Leica to 'repair' this?

 

And who determines what's "satisfactory"?

 

Pete.

Edited by farnz

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I

 

I understand that I can request that the retailer, from whom I purchased the camera, pay for all repairs under the Sale of Goods Act but I wanted to give Leica the opportunity to rectify the issue with me directly before involving a third party.

 

 

Leica are the third party in this. Any redress you might have is via your retailer. I'm not sure your "legal adviser" is up to much. As I and others have said your confrontational approach is unhelpful and it appears you have been badly advised.

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. . . . . but you have published. You are handling this very badly and I suspect (and hope) that you will get the response you deserve!

Edited by I love my M8

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Guest PhotoWebb.co.uk

Thanks for the feedback. Hopefully Leica will do something but they may not. I can still go through my retailer for a repair under the Sale of Goods Act if not.

 

As for the question of why I am doing this for those who have asked, I think that it's great to share information especially when other users may have been or could well be in this position in the future. It'll be good for us all to know what Leica's position is on this for now and in the future.

 

I certainly would not want to buy another Leica product until I know they stand by what they claim about their products.

 

I am hearing a lot about Leica being very 'reasonable' and 'accomodating' but there is little concrete evidence that I could find when investigating my problem. Hopefully I will be able to provide other users down the line with this type of very comforting information should their camera develop similar faults/problems.

 

Thanks

 

Daniel

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Daniel

 

What exactly are you trying to achieve? I can understand your desire to simply want your camera to be repaired for free due to its high cost and expensive repair, but...

 

It looks to me as though your contention is that there is a fundamental shutter problem and erratic electronic performance with the M8 and that you are basing this on 'hearsay' (from this forum?) - hardly evidence in any legal sense I would suspect. In the letter that you posted here you mention the need to use infrared filters too - unless you were a very early adopter of the M8 then this 'issue' was well publicised - and the fact that Leica supplied 2 x filters - and this is irrelevant to any of your arguments as it was well known and dealt with early on (even if you don't like the solution).

 

I also note that at the bottom of your letter you say "confirm that you are happy to repair the camera free of charge and I will send it in for repair" which suggests to me that Leica have not as yet seen the camera. Out of curiosity why do you expect Leica to offer a 'free of charge' repair on an out of warranty camera which they have not seen and therefore cannot have diagnosed the fault on? For all they know there may be a simple cause for the shutter failure which is entirely down to the user.

 

I will be interested to know how you get on aftr Leica have seen the camera and responded.

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Based upon the marketing material that was produced to entice customers to invest in a Leica M8 I am surprised that the camera has developed a fault...

 

"Not many things last a lifetime. A Leica M often lasts longer...

 

You _do_ realise the meaning of the word "often" in that last sentence don't you? They are not saying that all Ml cameras _will_ last for ever, they are saying that a good proportion will.

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With regards to your 'claim' against the retailer.

From what you say it would appear that you bought the camera as a pre owned and used item.

How did the dealer act when making the sale to you.

Did they themselves give you the impression that it would last a lifetime or beyond or did you make the assumption yourself from something you had read in other words was the camera miss sold by them?

Was it made clear to you that the dealer was offering a time limited 6mth warranty on the camera. You had obviously researched the model were you aware at the time of 'issues' you mention on other peoples cameras, if so did you query this with the retailer and question them, how did they respond?

How was the camera described by the dealer. You also say that you have always treated you camera with care but as with all used goods you never know how any previous owner/s may have treated/miss treated equipment, could the 'fault' be down to user errors dating back to then.

 

It will be very interesting to find the outcome of legal action over used items that have since been used for a time over a dealers warranty period, could have great implications over any use goods sold not only cameras.

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This can be interesting to read... This document concerns the Directive1999/44/EC on the sale of consumer goods and associated guarantees has been implemented in all 25 Member States. I think you'll find an answer to your questions:

 

http://www.consulegis.com/fileadmin/downloads/Dr_T_M_Award-Dr_Csaba_Sari.pdf

 

As fas as I know, in France, the problem with the shutter will be considered as a "vice cache" and Leica should repair it for free.

 

After a few return trips Paris/Solms, Leica replaced the shutter in one of my cameras (shutter faultmessage) and... the camera later, because after replacing the shutter, I didn't had the "Shutter Fault Message" but the camera freezed often with the new shutter half open.

 

Good luck!

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So many people on Leica's side... when this appears to be an issue that does effect too many M8s. The Minilux had the same issue. I had mine repaired twice and it was only $100-200 back in the 90s. That's easy to handle, but the M8's repair is a lot more pricy.

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So many people on Leica's side... when this appears to be an issue that does effect too many M8s.

 

That's your opinion rather than fact. Many of us seem to doubt that and also to have reservations about the OP's approach and motives.

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Guest BigSplash

I guess the way that Leica handle this will be very telling:

  • If the shutter issue is due to the user doing something inappropriate ( as suggested by some above) then obviously Leica will want payment for a repair
  • If the camera has been used heavily and has simply worn out ...again I guess that Leica will not sidh to repair for free.
  • If there is a fault that affects many M8 shutters as implied here I guess Leica will:
    • Wish to repair for free
    • Issue a general recall or at least communicate that they are positive to repairing defective shutters for free.
    • Not wish to hide behind statements such as OFTEN Leica cameras last a lifetime....when they meant that this does sometimes happen, but is not the norm and is certainly not guaranteed.!

My personla belief is that Leica will fix the camera for free and move on as fast as possible to win back the confidence of the client to buy more kit.

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.... and move on as fast as possible to win back the confidence of the client to buy more kit...

 

... second hand and ask again for a first hand warranty without having paid Leica a cent....?

 

Yes perhaps they will agree on this. And perhaps they will be called greedy again and again.

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Guest PhotoWebb.co.uk

Just to be clear; here are my motives:

1. I want Leica to repair my camera free of charge

2. I want other users who have the same experience to know that Leica will repair the camera free of charge

3. I want prospective buyers of Leica equipment to know what their service offering looks like in situations such as these

 

When you think about it, should Leica do the right thing and repair the camera, they will have got some excellent PR out of it - or does anyone disagree with that statement? - I might regret asking that! ;-)

Edited by PhotoWebb.co.uk

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The more interesting question is what happens if Leica does not repair it for free.

 

That would be the point when you can prove that you do not lack style in all matters.

 

Regards

Steve

Edited by Steve Ash

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