AlanG Posted December 15, 2006 Share #401 Â Posted December 15, 2006 Advertisement (gone after registration) Truly one of the most interesting and downright informative threads -- whatever you were looking to find out about the M8.... Â I think I read the entire thread and looked closely at every image. I don't know if the M8 ever really was for me and the kind of work I do, but I was curious to see how it could perform. Â As far as color goes, putting it diplomatically... It seems to raise more questions than answers. Â Thanks. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted December 15, 2006 Posted December 15, 2006 Hi AlanG, Take a look here Yosemite M8 trip. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
robsteve Posted December 15, 2006 Author Share #402 Â Posted December 15, 2006 As far as color goes, putting it diplomatically... It seems to raise more questions than answers. Â Thanks. Â It may be that people are hypersensitized to colour issues and look for it in every shot. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack_Flesher Posted December 15, 2006 Share #403 Â Posted December 15, 2006 I agree with Alan. Â Bottom line is I feel Leica "screwed the pooch" on this one and should address the IR bleed issue with more than the insulting "filter the lens" fix. That is a stupid requirement for a $5000 camera. I seriously question the ability of a filter over the lens to solve this issue completely in all situations -- it did not wok for Nikon when they were faced with the same issue a few years back and they had to completely re-design and re-release that camera -- so call me suspicious. I will reserve comment until I see what a GOOD set of profiles done with the lens filter in place can do after it has been put into service for a few weeks... Â However, I suppose if one is only ever going to do B&W conversions, this is pretty much a non-issue. Â Cheers, Â Jack Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanG Posted December 15, 2006 Share #404 Â Posted December 15, 2006 It may be that people are hypersensitized to colour issues and look for it in every shot. Â Well that's a big part of my job. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riley Posted December 15, 2006 Share #405 Â Posted December 15, 2006 It may be that people are hypersensitized to colour issues and look for it in every shot. Â you know thats very true i see colour issues in all sorts of cameras now that i'm allerted to it its not only the M8 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
reven Posted December 15, 2006 Share #406 Â Posted December 15, 2006 Yes I think lot's of cameras have got problems. I really think Canon Cameras (Can only refer to a 1DsMk2, 5D and 10D) have really problems with grass in the sunlight. Sorry, but the green I'm getting from these cameras is the ugliest green I ever have seen and is nothing close to real. But Ok you can change that in PS... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie Roberts Posted December 15, 2006 Share #407 Â Posted December 15, 2006 Advertisement (gone after registration) @Christoper--yes, I think you're right about the Canons and blue-greens. They're way too yellow for the most part. Grass in direct sun--no matter how I seem to process it--does always seem a bit glowy. Â And Caucasian skin tones are often much too red, too. Â Both can be "fixed" in PS. Probably better profiling would help too. Â @Jack--I'm still loving the M8 despite its quirks. The early profile work in a RAW workflow--without filters--not to mention the sheer detail and printability of these files--is just so promising that I'm glad I've got the M8. But I do wish the IR wasn't an issue at all. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack_Flesher Posted December 15, 2006 Share #408 Â Posted December 15, 2006 That's my rub Jamie... I like the camera too, but am pissed at Leica in that they only offer a band-aid repair for a top of the line camera. It is a prime example of why they continue to struggle to gain, or even maintain, market share in the contemporary digital camera market. If Leica doesn't change their operating paradigm now, they won't survive long enough to get an M9 or even the R10 to market... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
think Posted December 15, 2006 Share #409 Â Posted December 15, 2006 @Jack--I'm still loving the M8 despite its quirks. The early profile work in a RAW workflow--without filters--not to mention the sheer detail and printability of these files--is just so promising that I'm glad I've got the M8. Â Jamie, Â I'm working on a couple of panoramic projects where the portability and level of detail could be a real bonus. I've got an M8 on order, but I won't see it for a while. Â Is the M8 on an RRS pano rig a viable option in your opinion? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pat308 Posted December 15, 2006 Share #410  Posted December 15, 2006 I agree with Alan.  Bottom line is I feel Leica "screwed the pooch" on this one and should address the IR bleed issue with more than the insulting "filter the lens" fix. That is a stupid requirement for a $5000 camera. I seriously question the ability of a filter over the lens to solve this issue completely in all situations -- it did not wok for Nikon when they were faced with the same issue a few years back and they had to completely re-design and re-release that camera -- so call me suspicious. I will reserve comment until I see what a GOOD set of profiles done with the lens filter in place can do after it has been put into service for a few weeks...  However, I suppose if one is only ever going to do B&W conversions, this is pretty much a non-issue.  Cheers,  Jack  OK. Now my respect in this group has been restored. I thought for a moment that Leica was going to get a pass on the M8 and that everybody was sooo happy that nobody was going to be honest about it. Can the M8 be used sure, but it is going to be a lot harder to get great images than it should be.  The filter on the lens will only fix the IR issue to an extent - though this is also true for filter on the sensor - and the filter is going to have to be matched with the sensor. Despite the fact people say any old IR filter will work, it is not the case. Any old filter will work somewhat, but Leica needs to come up with a filter spec. Somebody tried several filters out there and found that none of them fixed the problem completely.  It is also good to know somebody remembers Nikon's scrape with this issue. Kodak also had a problem on the early cameras. It is shocking that Leica thought they cold get away with shipping the M8, and really upsetting that many reviewers were complicit.  NO I am not a troll. I have waited a long time for Leica to produce a digital rangefinder and happy they have, but I think they have abused their loyal followers.  Sorry Jack, to hijack your comments.. but I have seen some really great shots from the M8 and am disappointed that things have gone the way they have. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanG Posted December 16, 2006 Share #411 Â Posted December 16, 2006 @Christoper--yes, I think you're right about the Canons and blue-greens. They're way too yellow for the most part. Grass in direct sun--no matter how I seem to process it--does always seem a bit glowy. Â And Caucasian skin tones are often much too red, too. Â Both can be "fixed" in PS. Probably better profiling would help too. Â Â You don't necesarily have to use PS. Â A lot of the time when I hear general statements about the color of a specific brand or model of camera, I wonder how universal that opinion is. After all, the raw converters and profiles play a big role. For instance, I get considerably different results with DxO than I get with Capture One Pro. And many cameras have all kinds of adjustments to their jpeg shooting. Â I use DxO for my Raw conversions and it can make the conversions of any supported camera have the color and look of any other supported camera. I think if DxO supported the M8, you'd see better color from it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
blakley Posted December 16, 2006 Share #412 Â Posted December 16, 2006 Not only is the problem "not just the M8", it's not even "just digital" - remember all the whining about Velvia's skin tones? Or Ektachrome's "cool" color palette? Â Color is complicated.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie Roberts Posted December 16, 2006 Share #413  Posted December 16, 2006 Jamie, I'm working on a couple of panoramic projects where the portability and level of detail could be a real bonus. I've got an M8 on order, but I won't see it for a while.  Is the M8 on an RRS pano rig a viable option in your opinion?  Bob--apart from looking a little weird (it's odd enough just to put the thing on a tripod ) it should work well.  I don't do a lot of panos, but I do have an RRS plate for the M8 to go on the ballhead. Haven't done it yet, though; but I will, even if it feels wrong  I imagine you'll have to be careful, though with the framing; luckily you can check the LCD...I'd never try this with a film rangefinder (though I have no doubt that someone does it). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie Roberts Posted December 16, 2006 Share #414 Â Posted December 16, 2006 Color is complicated.... Â Never a truer word... though I do think Leica mis-handled the whole IR thing here (and maybe got caught by an unfortunate combo of high demand, bad profiles, and bad parts in the initial runs). Â And Jack is right--you just don't expect the magenta black thing from a $5K camera these days... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
blakley Posted December 16, 2006 Share #415 Â Posted December 16, 2006 Oh, I'm totally with you there, Jamie. I shot some artwork for a friend today with my unfixed M8 (on short notice) and the color shifts with filters were painful to behold. I shot a MacBeth colorchecker chart so I can get the pix back in the ballpark, but it sure would be nice not to have to worry about this stuff. It would also be nice not to have to worry about all my old and off-brand lenses not working properly in color once the camera is fixed. And, it would be nice not to have to worry about the damage to Leica's brand this incident has unquestionably caused. Still, on balance, I'm glad I have the camera & I plan to use it a lot. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie Roberts Posted December 16, 2006 Share #416  Posted December 16, 2006 {snipped} It would also be nice not to have to worry about all my old and off-brand lenses not working properly in color once the camera is fixed. {snipped}  I hope to heck Leica puts a manual lens selector in firmware. Or sells coding kits  Or makes the IR vignette fix optional...I have a feeling I'll be sticking with firmware level 1.09 if I can... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanG Posted December 16, 2006 Share #417  Posted December 16, 2006 Not only is the problem "not just the M8", it's not even "just digital" - remember all the whining about Velvia's skin tones? Or Ektachrome's "cool" color palette? Color is complicated....  Velvia wasn't intended for portraits...  Yes color is complicated in a theoretical sense but it is much easier to get good color now using digital photography than it ever was with transparency film. And most cameras make it pretty easy to get in the ballpark so you can just do a little tweaking on the raw files. Even point and shoots do a pretty good job with color. Digital cameras with raw output have much more versatility in their color pallets whereas each type of film had its own look and limitations.  Various films were made for different applications. Understanding when to use which film and how to filter it was part of the skill required for critical photography. Testing film and developing a knowledge base was required for my type of work. I had every Kodak Wratten filter in 3" and 4" plus many Linhof 70mm glass color correction filters along with color temperature meters and other filters to go over my lights and lights on the scene. As the meters are not accurate with illumination that has a discontinuous spectrum, I carried a large notebook of my test results showing the filters I used for each specific type of lighting that I had previously encountered on a job. (High end commercial interior photography.) Often, I would test shoot a building interior in advance of the project. I judged the transparencies on a GTI lightbox that monitored the voltage, color quality, and bulb life.  4x5 color transparencies were generally required by most architects, interior designers, builders, and magazines. Many photographers doing this kind of work eventually switched to using Fuji NPS and NPL negative film as shooting accurate color on transparency film was just becoming too difficult. This was due to all the types of unusual lighting that became required with energy efficient building codes. Sometimes photographers would have a lab make transparencies from these negatives. Once we started scanning film and supplying digital files, things got a lot easier.  The same color skills are required today when it comes to adjusting the camera or raw processing for the output you desire. But it is immediate if you shoot tethered and much much easier now. The cameras I use don't seem to restrict me in any way from producing the color quality that I and my clients require. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
robsteve Posted December 21, 2006 Author Share #418  Posted December 21, 2006 Not only is the problem "not just the M8", it's not even "just digital" - remember all the whining about Velvia's skin tones? Or Ektachrome's "cool" color palette? Color is complicated....  I was just thinking about this film analogy today. Some of the M8 problems only come out in extreme conditions such as over exposure. Things we just wouldn't do with film and then complain to a film manufacturer. I expect most of the glitches for the M8 will get ironed out, but as with the DMR a few will remain and we will just have to live with them or choose not to use a M8, that is pick another film to suit the conditions. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tjphoto Posted December 21, 2006 Share #419 Â Posted December 21, 2006 Melvin Rules! Â http://www.tjphoto.net Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
robsteve Posted December 28, 2006 Author Share #420  Posted December 28, 2006 Melvin Rules! Tim Jones Photography  Who is Melvin? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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