Yosemite M8 trip

[Jamie Roberts]

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Bon Appetit! I'm getting hungry just looking at that

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[lars_bergquist]

I think certain people should stop their carping. For ages and ages, we shot Kodachrome balanced for 5,500 K, take it or leave it. How many of us did carry a Minolta Color Meter II and a full set of CC filters? The most that most people did was to permanently screw a skylight filter on their Nikon glass.

 

OK, there were people who did this pedantic act when Kodachrome was new, too. I presume they have been hibernating all these years, gnashing their teeth in their sleep. Now they are out again. Face it: No system, analog or digital, will exactly reproduce the colours that we see -- even less, the colours that we imagine ourselves seeing. Our own White Balancing system at the back of our heads (it's called Colour Constancy) will forever beat anything we can come up with, because it works directly on our minds. Let's accept that and go out and take some pictures. Many thanks to Guy and his pals who were willing to share these pix with us, even though they probably knew what was coming to them.

 

The old man from the Age of Black and White

[Guest guy_mancuso]

Thank You Lars and well said and very true , you just say it better than me:D

 

Honestly Jack and i expected worse.

 

Okay the sky is clearing were off to shoot. Have a great Saturday folks and we will post hopefully better WB images:D

[Guest stevenrk]

Here is a shot of "the gang" eating Guy's famous steak. Mike used his 5D with a 24mm lens at f2.8 focused on candle, ISO 1600. Lighting is a single 150 watt tungsten bulb above the table, candles on the table and fluorescent kitchen lights directly behind the camera which obviously will impart more color effect on the foreground subjects.

 

If you look closely, you can see the cheese filled peppers stuffed inside the sliced flank steak. Wines were a Chateaux Neuf, an ancient vine Mouvard and a local Zin -- all were excellent pairings with the meal, as was the company.

 

Faces clockwise from lower left: Guy Mancuso, Mark Kay, Jack Flesher, Robert Stevens, Mike Hatam:

 

 

Cheers,

 

Jack

 

 

think I see the 5D's propensity to make good steak look even better -- partly caused -- so the theory goes -- by the ghost images of the steak that it produces in incandescent light. If you look hard enough you can see it. It's effect is similar to sublimal messages. But you have to forgive the poor old 5d considering how good that meal looks. Clearly asking too much for the camera to cope with.

 

Look forward to the new batch of images to enjoy and admire that must be in the middle of being searched for in the wilds of Yosemite. Just good for all of us to know you are all well fueled for the task.

[carstenw]

I agree Carsten, even after Robert re-worked the original and desaturated the red -- in his second rendition, the pimento in my martini olive looks a tad anemic!

 

While I agree that the mixed lighting is impossible to correct for, I do think the IR issue of the M8 is going to continue to give skin rendering problems. What I see is that under certain conditions, the slight IR bleed tends to slice through skin and show a bit of what's underneath, hence the red and blotchiness -- and I can assure you even after a couple martinis, my face is not that blotchy! I suspect this can be dealt with effectively with the right combination of IR-cut filter -- 700 nm absobrption type -- and a profile built specifically for it.

 

Cheers,

 

Jack

 

Hello Jack,

 

First of all, to Lars and anyone else who might misunderstand: I am not "carping" on the magenta cast in the people/mixed light pictures, I own an M8 and I am genuinely concerned. In the roughly 100 shots I took before I sent it off to Solms, I saw some really weird colour casts which were so strong that I could not correct them in Lightroom at all. Some of them looked like the original version of the "Cheers" Jack-picture (I note that it has been corrected; looks good now, maybe a little weak).

 

To give my concern some substance, here are two pictures which really show it. I white balanced the first one on the grey of the M8, and the second one on the white marble table. Both pictures look very close to the original colours, except the skin tones. I didn't take the second one (I was chatting with a guy in a café who was very interested in the camera, and he shot a couple), and I completely messed up the focus on the first one. No art here, just a couple of shots. The exposures were reasonable in both pictures.

 

I presume Leica will make great improvements to this with the modifications, I am just concerned, that's all. Concerned enough that it finally spurred me to buy a WhiBal card. Curiously, it is grey, with a black and white, cm and inches, sticker. I thought they were tri-colour? Anyway, it'll work.

 

I also bought a soft-release from Abrahamsson. Great little thing; can't wait to use it.

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[tjphoto]

Yes, it reminds me of the original nikon digital D1. It had a nasty magenta skin tone.

You could never really fix it in post . It made me give on nikons and move on to canons.

Which i really think are awesome with no tweaking at all..

I really would love to be able to shoot with a digi M.but untill i see some decent skin tones without a lot of tweaking, i'm staying away.

The skin tones really look cruddy, i shoot people not barn doors.

I think my digilux 2 is comparable.

It looks like non human stuff is great.

I really like leica and Kodak. I want them to succeed.

Thanks,

Tim

http://www.tjphoto.net

[Jamie Roberts]

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I have never--and I repeat--never, ever, seen anything from the M8 even close to the magenta mess in skin tones that Carsten just posted.

 

And skin tones are what I shoot.

 

Carsten--you sent this to Solms because it was truly defective, right?

 

On the other hand, I also don't use LightRoom...so YMMV.

 

My Canons are truly no better at all in terms of colour rendition, and arguably worse in terms of tonality.

[Jamie Roberts]

{snipped}I really would love to be able to shoot with a digi M.but untill i see some decent skin tones without a lot of tweaking, i'm staying away.

The skin tones really look cruddy, i shoot people not barn doors.

{snpped}

 

You won't see them in this thread. IMO, you are waaayyyy off with your evaluation.

[tjphoto]

OK, could someone show me some decent skin tones shot with the M8?

I would really like to see them. Some of the scenics look really nice.

Thanks,

Tim

Tim Jones Photography

[carstenw]

I have never--and I repeat--never, ever, seen anything from the M8 even close to the magenta mess in skin tones that Carsten just posted.

 

And skin tones are what I shoot.

 

Carsten--you sent this to Solms because it was truly defective, right?

 

On the other hand, I also don't use LightRoom...so YMMV.

 

My Canons are truly no better at all in terms of colour rendition, and arguably worse in terms of tonality.

 

My 5D is not as nice with colour in general as my M8, and many of my M8 shots had much nicer skin colours than these two shots. I sent the M8 to Solms because it could not focus on infinity, not because of the colours. I think it is just a white-balance issue, combined with infrared, so I presume it will be fixed with the update, and the IR-block filters. It could also be that Lightroom is not quite ripe yet, since it is just a beta.

 

Anyway, I only posted those shots to back up my concern with ruddy skin tones. I don't want to hijack the thread, so if you would like to continue discussing this, let's start a new thread. I am quite happy to re-post my pics there. I would like to track this issue, once my M8 comes back, fixed. I can re-shoot in those exact two locations, if necessary, although not necessarily with the same guy sitting there

[c6gowin]

OK, could someone show me some decent skin tones shot with the M8?

I would really like to see them.

The first photo in the thread linked below shows a pretty accurate skin tone. It is very close to what I recall for this person. Photo was taken in daylight, but in the shade.

 

http://www.leica-camera-user.com/digital-forum/10408-leica-90-f2-aa-versatility.html

[tjphoto]

Can Raw Developer be used on the M8?

I use it all the time. I have ACR2, Lightroom,Canon DDP.

Aperture and Leaf raw processing software.

 

Raw developer is my fav. by far. It's fast, powerful, and super clean.

[innerimager]

Can Raw Developer be used on the M8?

I use it all the time. I have ACR2, Lightroom,Canon DDP.

Aperture and Leaf raw processing software.

 

Raw developer is my fav. by far. It's fast, powerful, and super clean.

yes and it works great. They even have curves you can download that allow you to use Jamies excellent profiles for C1. The curve emulates C1. ....Peter

[Jamie Roberts]

{snipped}

Anyway, I only posted those shots to back up my concern with ruddy skin tones. I don't want to hijack the thread, so if you would like to continue discussing this, let's start a new thread. I{snipped}

 

Carsten--done...

 

http://www.leica-camera-user.com/digital-forum/11192-m8-skin-tones.html#post115000

 

See you there--you too, Tim

[tjphoto]

Jamie, i never shoot my leaf with a gray card. I tweak a little in post. Skin tones are always fab. Never red spotch.

[Guest stevenrk]

Steven--

 

Skin tones, though, are NOT one of this particular camera's flaws. I don't want to get into this much more on this thread--which has me thinking stuff like--

 

"holy heck I want the DNG of Guy's sepia shots because I know there's 6 stops of printing latitude for multiple, real "zone system" work here and that's the first time I even think that about a digital shot without film (the subject matter helps ) "

 

and

 

"even in these silly sRGB JPEGs the smoothness of tone from the M8 is amazing"

 

But really now, Apple notwithstanding, portable LCDs can't even set a WP or BP very successfully. You talk to Gretag or XRite guys about this and they say stuff like... hmmm "turn it up full brightness and guess."

 

So I don't think Guy is being modest at all. I think the colour profile of the M8 (or the DMR, come to that) is so far outside sRGB / LCD monitor gamut that it's actually harder to proof on the portable.

 

As for the profiles... and probably not from me... all I can say is "wait and see." The IR ones really are flawed right now, especially with the original M8 profile.

 

There is nothing in the colour reponse of the camera that I've seen to date that won't be fixed with a good profile. That's why I started tweaking; the difference, to me, is amazing.

 

Maybe just to put a quick stake in this, here is the original post (which, by the way, looks less magenta in PS than it does in Internet Explorer...):

 

[ATTACH]17810[/ATTACH]

 

 

Now, here is the simulated effect of a proper profile. Since I don't have the RAW files, this is an automated channel mixer operation from PS that I use for--wait for it--the 5d and the 1ds2--where there's often talk of "Canon sunburn"--probably due to IR response as well.

 

NO tweaking here--just a "profile" switch (and actually, not as good as a profile switch, since we're not working on RAW data anymore):

 

[ATTACH]17811[/ATTACH]

 

 

BTW--Guy--28 degrees F isn't "cold" but you're still brave to shoot with the vest!

 

I'm kidding as a Canadian here Less than 0 degrees C is certainly cold enough--especially with wind--for someone like me--a northern European mutt Canuck--to get very red in the face (especially with a touch of rosacea).

 

Hey Jamie, just to take the moment to say two quick things before answering your questions. First, tremendous the work you are doing with the profiling. We've all been learning so much from your efforts. Thank you

 

Second, in reading through the posts, what Guy and Co. are doing is truly astounding -- you have about a half a dozen hearty people with M8s, DMRs, and 5ds, 1dsII? WHO KNOW WHAT THEY ARE DOING BEHIND A CAMERA AND A COMPUTER SCREEN and sharing the images, the comparisons, the tests, the info on light, exposure, filtration, post and repost AND the good food and spirits! That is a unique -- let me reemphasize -- UNIQUE opportunity to take part in a well spirited, enjoyable conversation about what's good and not so good. An opportunity that will likely not happen again in a very very long time!

 

So please, truth police on both sides, chill out! Have a Martini and then have another. Get Guy to send you his recipe for that delicious steak. If you are of the school who wants to blame the M8 and Leica for all the worlds ills, or of the school that says any criticism of the heavenly apparition that the Leica has sent down is blasphemy, leave us alone to have a good spirited conversation taking full advantage of this wonderful opportunity.

 

We are all part of a world wide real time classroom and think tank (well that may be reaching) working off real, great, enjoyable images of one of the most beautiful places on earth spilling forth from a group of guys who are well equipped to hold their own and not exactly a potted plant amongst them.

 

AND, on conversations like skin color we get to speculate on whether we are seeing the effect of the martini or the IR filter! Now that is fun. Unless Guy and Co tell us that is not what they are looking for and they just want love notes, then I say have at it, use this opportunity as much as possible, keep it good spirited and good natured, look for answers and not blame, and enjoy and consider yourself damn lucky to be a part of such an interesting conversation with so much good RAW data -- meat and otherwise. And thank you Guy and Co. for taking us along for the ride!

 

Hope I didn't go to far Guy and Co, and feel free to slap me down if I have. I'll just use it as a reason to go drown my sorrows and feelings in martinis.

 

Jamie, very interesting what you've done above. The first image is actually differently post processed from what was first posted so is already corrected a bit -- no problem with that. It actually helps make what you’ve done a more useful comparison.

 

The difficulty I think you see is that in your final take look at what you had to do to the pallor of the skin and the light and sparkle in the eyes to take out the blotchiness (Jack hope apologies accepted for looking at your image in such a clinical fashion). Poor Jack has gone from looking like he was on the North side of a few too many martinis, to the other side of what you feel like after waking up in the morning after a night of too many martinis. That is what I'm suggesting is the hardest nut to crack about what we are seeing in the images and very hard to work when you are dealing with fullish frames of people. Or even group shots. Even if you go and work spot post processing to individual portions/tones in a person's face you never quite get it looking on the mark -- in terms of truly flattering to the person. Does what I'm saying make sense to you? not suggesting that I may not be missing the whole point and it it’s me who’s got the problem -- and would be happy if that is the case -- but I don't see the solution in what you posted above.

 

Best, Steven

[chrism]

Well if these are 'fun' photos, I can only hope my serious ones might be as good. Some of those landscapes and the frozen tufts of grass in the river - beautiful! Keep it up guys, you are an inspiration.

 

Chris

[newyorkone]

Hello Jack,

 

First of all, to Lars and anyone else who might misunderstand: I am not "carping" on the magenta cast in the people/mixed light pictures, I own an M8 and I am genuinely concerned. In the roughly 100 shots I took before I sent it off to Solms, I saw some really weird colour casts which were so strong that I could not correct them in Lightroom at all. Some of them looked like the original version of the "Cheers" Jack-picture (I note that it has been corrected; looks good now, maybe a little weak).

 

To give my concern some substance, here are two pictures which really show it. I white balanced the first one on the grey of the M8, and the second one on the white marble table. Both pictures look very close to the original colours, except the skin tones. I didn't take the second one (I was chatting with a guy in a café who was very interested in the camera, and he shot a couple), and I completely messed up the focus on the first one. No art here, just a couple of shots. The exposures were reasonable in both pictures.

 

I presume Leica will make great improvements to this with the modifications, I am just concerned, that's all. Concerned enough that it finally spurred me to buy a WhiBal card. Curiously, it is grey, with a black and white, cm and inches, sticker. I thought they were tri-colour? Anyway, it'll work.

 

I also bought a soft-release from Abrahamsson. Great little thing; can't wait to use it.

 

Carsten...sorry you got a dud M8, but I think that's what happened more so than these photos being representative of what the M8 would typically capture. I think in time we will see that the magenta cast was tied together for the most part with all the other sensor/camera issues. The IR effect will probably still be present in the newer updated cameras (and in your fixed camera) but it will be to a much lesser degree...IMHO. Take care.

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Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[Jamie Roberts]

{snipped}

Jamie, very interesting what you've done above. The first image is actually differently post processed from what was first posted so is already corrected a bit -- no problem with that. It actually helps make what you’ve done a more useful comparison.

 

The difficulty I think you see is that in your final take look at what you had to do to the pallor of the skin and the light and sparkle in the eyes to take out the blotchiness (Jack hope apologies accepted for looking at your image in such a clinical fashion). Poor Jack has gone from looking like he was on the North side of a few too many martinis, to the other side of what you feel like after waking up in the morning after a night of too many martinis. {snipped}

 

Steven--first, thanks for the kind words; I do appreciate them.

 

In your words, I don't see "a solution" in what I posted either--I was working with a web shot for heaven's sake But I also don't see the problem with the camera the same way you do.

 

 

And in what I posted, I also don't see a magenta cast to the skin tones (he's not blotchy or posterized, like Carsten's shots), nor do I see any less sparkle in old Jack F's eyes, sorry.

 

I also don't think he looks too pale, either (though I'm assuming he's pretty fair), though his hand (as Robert said, I think) is overexposed.

 

Just to repeat--I did nothing at all to his skin--there is no individual adjustment there whatsoever--no selections and no contrast adjustments. And that action was made for Canons--not Leicas.

 

IOW, I changed all the colour--all at once--with one single adjustment in PS. Nothing to do with tweaking and NOT a profile fix--but similar to a profile fix (well, without the fine quality).

 

So I guess we let this rest.

 

You think I'm vampirizing Jack F (just kidding!) and I think, perhaps, you may need a new monitor

 

Anyway, I started a separate thread--because this is really off-topic. Let's continue there, if you think there's a point.

[Guest stnami]

.............................................................................................................................................mumps!