Eoin Posted January 2, 2010 Share #21  Posted January 2, 2010 Advertisement (gone after registration) Interesting moral dilema Wilfredo,  I'd like to think I could purchase the camera for the naive $20 and somehow trace the owner and return the camera to them. However I doubt I'd venture a couple of hundred or thousand to do the same thing. Regrettable sure!, but how far do you get involved.  Moral Dilemma No 2.  You're wandering through a "car boot sale" market and you happen upon a dear old lady with her stall and a selection of nice but old treasures she has decided to sell. Buried amongst the boxes of porcelain ornaments and tarnished silverware you find a scuffed leather camera case/cover and inside you find the used but otherwise mint condition original MP3 with a summilux 50 attached.  Do you ask:  (1) How much for the old camera missus?. (2) I'll take this, but do you have any more of those old glass things on the front?. (3) Do you double her asking price of £50 and smile at her shock of your generosity as she hurries to take £100 from you before you may change your mind?. (4) Or do you advise her as to the true value of the MP3 and advise she have it sold through a professional dealer and wish her well with her new found treasure?.  Now answer the same questions if the dear old lady was changed to an arrogant old/young lady/man.  Is there any difference?, and why?. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted January 2, 2010 Posted January 2, 2010 Hi Eoin, Take a look here Stolen M9, What Would You Do?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
M. Valdemar Posted January 2, 2010 Share #22 Â Posted January 2, 2010 Most of you don't have the aptitude or the capacity to carry out such a shopping expedition. Â You'd hurry down to the flea market or the boot sale with a lot of cash, with visions of bargains in your head and before you know what's happening, you'd wake up three hours later with your head in a loaded, unflushed toilet bowl and your pockets turned out. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaques Posted January 2, 2010 Share #23  Posted January 2, 2010 sounds like your speaking from experience there Valdemar  waking up with your head in a toilet.... ouch! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
kalina Posted January 2, 2010 Share #24 Â Posted January 2, 2010 What would you do if offered an M9 or even M8 for $20.00 complete with a really nice 50mm Summilux? Â This is a question of morals. If I was 23 or younger, I'd probably buy it and keep it, but since I'm almost twice that age and learned a lot in that time, I'd pass on the offer knowing that if something is too good to be true, it probably is. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jagsiva Posted January 2, 2010 Share #25  Posted January 2, 2010 I understand some of the rationale behind making an expensive camera look crappy but things like hiding the Leica Logo or the "M9" I suspect would make no difference to a thief, and I also suspect that there would be no real market for a hot M9. Most people buying from an addict who may have stolen it would probably think it too difficult to use, or consider it a dated camera. Serious photographers would proabaly figure out quickly that it was stolen if offered for $20.00 bucks. In my case I would buy it and either turn it over to the local police department or post the serial number here in an attempt to find the owner. What would you do if offered an M9 or even M8 for $20.00 complete with a really nice 50mm Summilux?  Sure, I'd buy it and sell it back to you for $30 so you can have the pleasure of letting the Police know. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wlaidlaw Posted January 2, 2010 Share #26 Â Posted January 2, 2010 On a related matter, do folks think we should press Leica to re-institute the stolen Leica items register that they used to have (my Digilux 1 was on it). Alternatively, I am happy to speak to Andreas to see if we could or should do one on this forum and ask Leica to put a link to it from their websites. Opinions? Â Wilson Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaques Posted January 2, 2010 Share #27 Â Posted January 2, 2010 Advertisement (gone after registration) I think it is a great idea... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicoleica Posted January 2, 2010 Share #28  Posted January 2, 2010 Problem is, and I do not konw if that is the same in the USA, if you could know the camera was stolen, for instance by the price or other circumstances, the original owner can claim it of you without you being reimbursed.  I don't know if it's been repealed by now, but there is/was a law in England known as market overt under which if you purchase something from a designated market overt between dawn and dusk, that subsequently turns out to be stolen, then the legal title to the goods passed to you at the time of purchase, and you do not have to surrender the goods. The same law covers traders who purchase stolen goods at these markets. I believe that all open markets within the City of London are covered by this law, and that several other open markets throughout England are also covered. So if you purchased the aforementioned camera from a street vendor in Petticoat Lane market for £20, you would have no legal obligation to part with it. However, the moral implications of keeping it would be a different story. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wlaidlaw Posted January 2, 2010 Share #29  Posted January 2, 2010 I don't know if it's been repealed by now, but there is/was a law in England known as market overt under which if you purchase something from a designated market overt between dawn and dusk, that subsequently turns out to be stolen, then the legal title to the goods passed to you at the time of purchase, and you do not have to surrender the goods. The same law covers traders who purchase stolen goods at these markets. I believe that all open markets within the City of London are covered by this law, and that several other open markets throughout England are also covered. So if you purchased the aforementioned camera from a street vendor in Petticoat Lane market for £20, you would have no legal obligation to part with it. However, the moral implications of keeping it would be a different story.  Nicole,  Petticoat Lane is in the borough of Tower Hamlets (my office used to be in Spitalfields, just nearby) so the exemption applying to the City of London should not work there. In any case, Petticoat Lane is now almost all cheap clothes and leather goods. The market that it was always said that this did apply to, was Southwark Market, on the south side of London Bridge by Southwark Cathedral, which is where you should go and look if you have had antiques stolen. The other area in years gone by, was the Liberties of Savoy, where you could sell stolen goods and you could not be arrested for debt. This area was re-developed for the Savoy Theatre and Hotel in the 19th century.  In the UK, most stolen expensive cameras used to go to Eastern Europe and the Balkans and then back to the rest of Europe via eBay.  Wilson Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicoleica Posted January 2, 2010 Share #30 Â Posted January 2, 2010 Hi Wilson, Â I had picked Petticoat Lane as an example, for two reasons. The main one being that it is name that many will recognise. the other being that I believe that a part of the market area does fall under the market overt designation. Bermondsey antique & silver market is another market that is/was certainly covered under this law. Â I agree with you that most stolen valuables are exported or appear on flea-bay these days. I had just raised the point of the market overt laws as an historic eccentricity of English law for any who may be concerned. A mostly forgotten part of this law is that it was originally created to allow those whose goods had been stolen an opportunity to reclaim them without cost from a market trader by searching market stalls before dawn or after dusk. Â Â Edit. I've just done some research, and following a couple of high profile cases regarding stolen art in the early 1990s, it was repealed in 1995. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pgk Posted January 2, 2010 Share #31 Â Posted January 2, 2010 What would you do if offered an M9 or even M8 for $20.00 complete with a really nice 50mm Summilux? Â At $20 it has to be extremely dodgy - depending on how it was offered I'd probably call the police and let them deal with it (that what they are there for and paid to do). How would any M9/8 owners here feel if it was their camera I wonder, and no-one did anything about it despite realising that it was a really dodgy deal ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
KM-25 Posted January 2, 2010 Share #32 Â Posted January 2, 2010 Wow, a little too much hypothesizing and not enough photography on this site for me at times. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andym911 Posted January 2, 2010 Share #33 Â Posted January 2, 2010 I would pay the man/woman the $20,(after checking that the battery is charged and there is a card inside, can't be too careful nowadays) Take the camera and Summilux home....praise the lord for my lucky day, open a bottle of Margot and start a thread on LUF about this guy I met in Petticoat Lane;) Â andy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
NB23 Posted January 2, 2010 Share #34 Â Posted January 2, 2010 The internet is an extremely funny place. It seems that everyone is a bigger saint then Jesus himself. This is amazing and, of course, untrue. Â If anyone comes across a stolen M9 + 50 summilux, please PM me I'll take them all for 2K, 3 and 4K. No problemo. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
danyves Posted January 2, 2010 Share #35  Posted January 2, 2010 I would pay the man/woman the $20,(after checking that the battery is charged and there is a card inside, can't be too careful nowadays) Take the camera and Summilux home....praise the lord for my lucky day, open a bottle of Margot and start a thread on LUF about this guy I met in Petticoat Lane;)  andy  Do prefer a bottle of Margaux  Chateau Margaux wine history and information, French Wine Guide Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andym911 Posted January 2, 2010 Share #36  Posted January 2, 2010 Do prefer a bottle of Margaux  Chateau Margaux wine history and information, French Wine Guide  whata plonker I am..... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
J_Thompson Posted January 2, 2010 Share #37 Â Posted January 2, 2010 To get back to the original question, Yes, I would buy the M9, but before doing so, would take a couple of picture of the seller just to make sure the camera was functional. I'd then hightail to the nearest police station, turn the camera in and be prepared to testify in court once the perp has been identified and apprehended. As far as my receiving stolen property is concerned, I don't think any prosecuting attorney would dare to file this case. And in the unlikely event that the police were unable to locate the victim / legal owner, I'd be more than glad to retake ownership and consider myself to be one extremely lucky SOB! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
microview Posted January 2, 2010 Share #38 Â Posted January 2, 2010 I'd then hightail to the nearest police station, turn the camera in and be prepared to testify in court once the perp has been identified and apprehended. Â Even if six of his mates are waiting for you outside the court? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
NB23 Posted January 2, 2010 Share #39 Â Posted January 2, 2010 Even if six of his mates are waiting for you outside the court? Â You're dreaming. Like waldemar said, the chances of eating a browner is much higher then any hypothe(pathe)tic pseudo law-enforcement or police involvement. Â This thread is a great example of "street shooters" having no clue of the street at all... Which finally explains all the "street pictures" involving tourist pedestrians walking left and right from far away. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eoin Posted January 3, 2010 Share #40 Â Posted January 3, 2010 ...If anyone comes across a stolen M9 + 50 summilux, please PM me I'll take them all for 2K, 3 and 4K. No problemo. Â Note to self, remind me to ask NB23 for proof of purchase for items he may be selling and i may be interested in. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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