The case for exposure control

[lars_bergquist]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

I am a relict (some would say derelict) from the age when we had exposure control. This control was exercised in two ways: We could decide what DIN or ASA value we would set our meters--handheld or built in--to; and we could decide where to point them. I will discuss these 'two freedoms' in this order (the second, I think, in a separate posting).

 

We learned the hard way that film sensitivity values were not cut in stone. How you exposed black-and-white films depended very much on how you developed them. Even slide films were given various kinds of exposure. I, like most pro photographers, exposed Kodachrome 64 at Exposure Index (E.I.) 80. In fact, most film manufacturers did long ago cease to print real DIN, ASA or ISO values on their cartons. What they gave us was in fact an E.I.: "Expose as DIN 22° or ASA 125". And what we dialed into our meters was E.I. values, however arrived at.

 

Now you can of course have a lapse of mind, and dial in the wrong E.I. Manufacturers knew they would be blamed for that, so they invented a way to force their private E.I.s on us: DX coding. Look at the M7. You can indeed select a different E.I. but you can do it only as "exposure compensation", and if you do, the camere screams visual blue (red?) murder at you so as not to forget to go back to the manufacturer's "correct" value. Big Brother is watching you.

 

The same in the M8. The Oberkommando der Leica Camera have decided exactly how much light the sensor should have, and if you set -1/3 in the menu, they will keep blinking that idiot light at you all the time, until you remember to go back to the Oberkommando value. --And you can only bias auto exposure! So when I'm on manual, I must try to remember to just get a ghost of light from the LED on the 'underexposure' side, while the center LED is lit up. I don't want an idiot light, because I am not an idiot. Now I'm forced to endure it, but not stoically: I am constantly cursing the Oberkommando.

 

So now listen: I don't want "exposure compensation", which is close to useless. It's too slow, and it's guesswork. If I have to guess at the last f-stop, I can damn well guess the rest of them. I want a way to deliberately and PERMANENTLY bias the exposure system of the camera in the direction that is right for me and my intentions for my images, and not only on A but on manual! Just as I did when I set my Lunasix or my OM-1 to E.I 90 or whatever AND KEPT IT THERE. Without some little German or Japanese imp popping up to rap me across my knuckles.

 

So give me true exposure metering control. Give it to me in the M8-2, or M8-XXP, or M9, or whatever; I'll buy it if I'm still alive and standing when it happens. Is there someone else who understands what I am saying? Is there someone else who understands what exposure control is? Give it to me!

 

The old man from the Age of Scheiner Degrees

 

(The case for 'pointing freedom' will be stated in a following posting.)

Edited April 18, 2009 by lars_bergquist

[stunsworth]

Buy a cheap external meter and shoot manually.

[Advertisement]

The Leica Q3 is available for pre-order at B&H Photo Video and Adorama

[dcoombs]

Perhaps I'm missing your point, but doesn't adjusting the EV setting on the M8 to plus or minus stops accomplish the permanent under or over exposure you're looking for? I typically leave my EV on -1/3 to help avoid blowing highlights, for example.

 

You probably know more about this than me, so pls explain why the above doesn't work for you.

 

Regards, Doug

[russell c. greenberg]

Lars, I am a little younger than you (I am 55 yearsold) but I distinctly remember all the concepts you are talking about and use them to this day. I totally agree with you on the point about the freedom to adjust exposure without the Oberkommando screaming Vorsicht! at us. I often make slight underexposure adjustments to saturate my exposures. (I used to rate Kodachrome 25 at E.I. 32 or 40) this is a carryover from my film use (80 to 90 percent transperancy film use). I would also like to adjust my exposures w/o the blinking light warning. Leica, could this be done as a firmware upgrade? Lars and I would appreciate this, any others? Russell

[russell c. greenberg]

Buy a cheap external meter and shoot manually.

Steve, I carry a Sekonic L308 meter with me, At around $200, it is a bargain, tons of meter for the money. ( Incident, Reflected, Corded and Uncorded flash readings, EV, ISO, and Cine readings) If anyone feels that carrying a small, pocket size meter is necessary, I highly recommend this one. Russell P.S. the current version is the L308B II.

[JeffWright]

Lars, maybe your M8 is different than mine or I misunderstood your post. But you can bias both manual and auto exposure. When I dial in EV compensation it works in both manual and AE modes....Not that they've put exposure compensation in a convenient place....

[sean_reid]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

I am a relict (some would say derelict) from the age when we had exposure control. This control was exercised in two ways: We could decide what DIN or ASA value we would set our meters--handheld or built in--to; and we could decide where to point them. I will discuss these 'two freedoms' in this order (the second, I think, in a separate posting).

 

We learned the hard way that film sensitivity values were not cut in stone. How you exposed black-and-white films depended very much on how you developed them. Even slide films were given various kinds of exposure. I, like most pro photographers, exposed Kodachrome 64 at Exposure Index (E.I.) 80. In fact, most film manufacturers did long ago cease to print real DIN, ASA or ISO values on their cartons. What they gave us was in fact an E.I.: "Expose as DIN 22° or ASA 125". And what we dialed into our meters was E.I. values, however arrived at.

 

Now you can of course have a lapse of mind, and dial in the wrong E.I. Manufacturers knew they would be blamed for that, so they invented a way to force their private E.I.s on us: DX coding. Look at the M7. You can indeed select a different E.I. but you can do it only as "exposure compensation", and if you do, the camere screams visual blue (red?) murder at you so as not to forget to go back to the manufacturer's "correct" value. Big Brother is watching you.

 

The same in the M8. The Oberkommando der Leica Camera have decided exactly how much light the sensor should have, and if you set -1/3 in the menu, they will keep blinking that idiot light at you all the time, until you remember to go back to the Oberkommando value. --And you can only bias auto exposure! So when I'm on manual, I must try to remember to just get a ghost of light from the LED on the 'underexposure' side, while the center LED is lit up. I don't want an idiot light, because I am not an idiot. Now I'm forced to endure it, but not stoically: I am constantly cursing the Oberkommando.

 

So now listen: I don't want "exposure compensation", which is close to useless. It's too slow, and it's guesswork. If I have to guess at the last f-stop, I can damn well guess the rest of them. I want a way to deliberately and PERMANENTLY bias the exposure system of the camera in the direction that is right for me and my intentions for my images, and not only on A but on manual! Just as I did when I set my Lunasix or my OM-1 to E.I 90 or whatever AND KEPT IT THERE. Without some little German or Japanese imp popping up to rap me across my knuckles.

 

So give me true exposure metering control. Give it to me in the M8-2, or M8-XXP, or M9, or whatever; I'll buy it if I'm still alive and standing when it happens. Is there someone else who understands what I am saying? Is there someone else who understands what exposure control is? Give it to me!

 

The old man from the Age of Scheiner Degrees

 

(The case for 'pointing freedom' will be stated in a following posting.)

 

 

Hi Lars,

 

You mean "relic" I think and now I'm wondering about your religious significance? <G>

 

As to your point, you can accomplish the same thing via manual exposure and mentally tweaking by histogram. Even if you could tweak the M8's metering on the fly it wouldn't always be on the money. The histogram's the thing in which we'll catch...

 

In other words, even if you got the feature you want you might still not be getting the exposures you want.

 

Best,

 

Sean

Edited April 18, 2009 by sean_reid

[lars_bergquist]

This is about 'the second freedom'--the freedom to decide what to meter.

 

That freedom was necessary to us in the days of selenium meters. They had very large angles of acceptance, sometimes larger than that of a standard lens. So we often had to deliberately point them in a direction different from that of the lens, to avoid for instance an overly bright sky. Restricted angle TTL metering (like in the M8) made the second freedom even more important, because we often find that the meter is metering something wildly irrelevant to exposue.

 

Yes, you say, you can do that, can't you? Yes, on manual (and let's hope that you blithely accept the Oberkommando's directions, or aren't irritated by blinking idiot lights--see my previous post). And, you say, I can do that on auto too. Just point the camera in the right direction, press the shutter release halfway down, and the 'substitute metering value' is locked in. Fine, I do that. And then the shutter releases ...

 

... and my "locked in" exposure has evaporated. Gone. Lost. And (because maybe I'm not the total tyro I'm supposed to be) I want one, two, three follow-up shots--maybe I want to really explore a subject--so I have to go through that identical point-the-camera-and-press-release-halfway-down-and-recompose rigmarole once again--no, twice again--no, for every subsequent frame I expose! Often enough, I won't get that second frame, because the subject is gone before that.

 

For that reason, I do seldom use the AE-lock feature. I switch over to manual instead. It slows my first frame, but not all the following, dammit. Still, the camera would be quicker with a useable AE lock. This is how I envisage it: A little lever under the shutter dial, ready to the second or first finger. Toggle it in one direction, and AE locks in (and yes, the red light should blink, because this time it IS temporary). The AE value remains locked in until (a) I toggle the lever in the other direction, or (2) switch the camera off, or (3) allow it to go on standby.

 

Exotic idea? My OM-2 Spot has it. It works like a charm. I don't think the idea is patented.

 

I have seen proposals for a thumb button on the camera back. But if it does nothing but what the second pressure point on the shutter release does, then it is equally useless; and if it has to be pressed in all the time while the exposure is locked, then it is irritating, and I can hear the swearing when the thumb slips in the middle of a sequence shot. No, give me something like my proposal. I KNOW it works. It is the only auto exposure lock I have ever worked with, that does work well.

 

--Now I have proposed (a) a menu item, and ( a small lever on the top plate. Now you can start throwing rotten eggs and ditto tomatoes at me. But remember, I have not tried to back seat drive Leica Camera (though possibly the Oberkommando). I have not, I hope violated the icon. Now I'm going out to take some pictures, because it's spring outside.

 

The old man from the Age of Scheiner Degrees

Edited April 18, 2009 by lars_bergquist

[lars_bergquist]

Perhaps I'm missing your point, but doesn't adjusting the EV setting on the M8 to plus or minus stops accomplish the permanent under or over exposure you're looking for? I typically leave my EV on -1/3 to help avoid blowing highlights, for example.

 

You probably know more about this than me, so pls explain why the above doesn't work for you.

 

Regards, Doug

I have already explained why, in my first posting. Read it again. Do I have to repeat it? OK, I will repeat it: First, because that red idiot light keeps blinking all the time (remember, that setting is not temporary, but PERMANENT) and second, because it works for auto exposure only.

 

As for the hand meter--I have several, and use them. But the point of building exposure metering into a camera is, I presume, that it would come in useful. And yes, I could tray develop glass plate negs. That did still happen when I was a kid. Why don't you do that, pray?

 

The old man from the Age of Scheiner Degrees

[lars_bergquist]

Hi Lars,

 

You mean "relic" I think and now I'm wondering about your religious significance? <G> Sean

 

Sean, some people do venerate me.

 

As to your point, you can accomplish the same thing via manual exposure and mentally tweaking by histogram. Even if you could tweak the M8's metering on the fly it wouldn't always be on the money. The histogram's the thing in which we'll catch...

 

In other words, even if you got the feature you want you might still not be getting the exposures you want.

 

Best,

 

Sean

Yes, Sean, but this is SLOW. A Leica M is meant to be an action camera. But at least you do understand what I'm talking about. Or maybe you are just literate.

 

Best regards from Lars Bergquist, the Irritating Old Man

[lars_bergquist]

Buy a cheap external meter and shoot manually.

I have several, and they were not exactly cheap.

 

I did own a Studio DeLuxe, and sold it, because its readouts were wildly non-linear: sometimes half a stop over, sometimes three quarters under, so that no consistent E.I. correction was possible. Maybe the new silicon cell model is better.

 

The Irritating Old Man with egg on his face

Edited April 18, 2009 by lars_bergquist

[dcoombs]

I have already explained why, in my first posting. Read it again. Do I have to repeat it? OK, I will repeat it: First, because that red idiot light keeps blinking all the time (remember, that setting is not temporary, but PERMANENT) and second, because it works for auto exposure only.

 

As for the hand meter--I have several, and use them. But the point of building exposure metering into a camera is, I presume, that it would come in useful. And yes, I could tray develop glass plate negs. That did still happen when I was a kid. Why don't you do that, pray?

 

Well excuse me for living. I thought I was asking a reasonable question to try and clarify my understanding of your first post. I didn't expect such a response. And by the way, I didn't mention anything about hand held meters...

 

Doug

[russell c. greenberg]

Lars, You are certainly not irritating, exactly the opposite, very well versed in photographic equipment and terminology. I learned a very neat trick for an earlier post on this subject. (albeit, only in auto exposure) When you meter, press gently on the shutter release to "lock-in" your exposure, then turn your aperture 1/2 stop for a "corrected" exposure. This works very well for me. As Sean said, check your histogram reading afterwards, I do this routinely, as I like to saturate my exposures ( see my previous reply to you on this thread). You must have a heavy touch or your shutter release is a hair trigger one. When you use Auto, try this. Hope this helps. Russell

Edited April 18, 2009 by russell c. greenberg
Lars, please explain Scheiner Degrees to me, if necessary send me a PM. Russell

[lars_bergquist]

Sean, a 'relic' is a piece of a saint, or one of the saint's belongings (like Saint Kakukylla's rat trap, kept in the quaint pilgrim church of Mülleimerstein in Schräg-Bayern) which is venerated or even thought to work miracles; though the Roman Church is soft-pedalling that aspect a bit nowadays.

 

A 'relict' is a leftover, deposited by the retreating glaciers of the Pleistocene Epoch.

 

Again, regards. The old man from the Age of Encyclopedias (I've edited a couple)

[sean_reid]

Sean, some people do venerate me.

 

 

Yes, Sean, but this is SLOW. A Leica M is meant to be an action camera. But at least you do understand what I'm talking about. Or maybe you are just literate.

 

Best regards from Lars Bergquist, the Irritating Old Man

 

Of course they venerate you.

 

It isn't really that slow because it is the only way to get the desired exposure unless one can do that on the fly by intuition (which can work as well). Your method would be faster but the meter would still often be "wrong" relative to what you wanted (because the subject and light would be changing). So, again I think that even if you got what you wanted as a feature you wouldn't really have what you wanted in the exposures.

 

Also, I use the method I was just talking about (a blend of histogram and intuitive tweaking) and I work pretty quickly. You certainly have the experience to do the same. In fact, I barely ever notice that the M8 has a meter after I check my first A mode exposure to get a starting histogram. Then its mostly manual and histogram plus whatever is left of my memory and experience for intuitive tweaking.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

[sean_reid]

I have several, and they were not exactly cheap.

 

I did own a Studio DeLuxe, and sold it, because its readouts were wildly non-linear: sometimes half a stop over, sometines three quarters under, so that no consistent E.I. correction was possible. Maybe the new silicon cell model is better.

 

The Irritating Old Man with egg on his face

 

For me, the advent of the histogram has made external meters unnecessary. YMMV

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

[sean_reid]

Sean, a 'relic' is a piece of a saint, or one of the saint's belongings (like Saint Kakukylla's rat trap, kept in the quaint pilgrim church of Mülleimerstein in Schräg-Bayern) which is venerated or even thought to work miracles; though the Roman Church is soft-pedalling that aspect a bit nowadays.

 

A 'relict' is a leftover, deposited by the retreating glaciers of the Pleistocene Epoch.

 

Again, regards. The old man from the Age of Encyclopedias (I've edited a couple)

 

I know and that's why I asked about your religious significance. I was joking with you.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

[lars_bergquist]

You must have a heavy touch or your shutter release is a hair trigger one. When you use Auto, try this. Hope this helps. Russell

No need to have one, Russell. The locked value is gone as soon as the shutter fires. Check for yourself.

 

In theory--but only there--it it possible to release the shutter and then go EXACTLY back to that second pressure point, but in practice not. A couple of hundreds of a millimeter, and you're screwed. Or a touch which is not heavy, but just a few newtons too light! We are speaking of reality now, out there in the asphalt jungle.

 

The Old Man with trembling hands

[sean_reid]

No need to have one, Russell. The locked value is gone as soon as the shutter fires. Check for yourself.

 

In theory--but only there--it it possible to release the shutter and then go EXACTLY back to that second pressure point, but in practice not. A couple of hundreds of a millimeter, and you're screwed. Or a touch which is not heavy, but just a few newtons too light! We are speaking of reality now, out there in the asphalt jungle.

 

The Old Man with trembling hands

 

That trembling is the spirit moving through you - see it is relic after all. <G>

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[lars_bergquist]

Well, Sean, I forgot to say that I keep my meters set to Incident. That's a trick no camera meter knows. This by the way is the safest way to work with pola filters---overexpose, and the effect is gone.

 

And yes I do chimp--rather too often, I think. And the histogram has obviated the need for a flash meter when I bounce the SF24 D. But when the incident meter has told me the general light level, I can fire happily away for as long as the light holds, without ever blowing a highlight.

 

BTW I am waiting eagerly for the next items on your site. You fellows out there, go to http://www.reidreviews.com and subscribe. It's worth every cent (they are dollar cents, after all ...)

 

That old man again