B&W giving it another go

[andym911]

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So after my M8 lay dormant for a couple of months, because I was frustrated with the black and white results I was getting, I decided to dust it off recently and take a new run at it.

 

What I am doing differently can be summarized in 3 areas.

 

1.Choice of Lens

2.ASA setting

3.Post processing

 

Here the details

 

1.Lens

 

I am only using lower contrast lenses, LTM Elmar 3,5/50 or Summarit 1,5/50 and LTM Summaron 3,5/35.This IMO makes a big difference as there is more room to adjust the files later in terms of getting good blacks and keeping the highlights.

 

2.ASA

I am only shooting at either 320 or 640.This seems to give a bit more character to the image, I find the 160 shots too 'clean'.640 seems to give me the best results.

 

3.Post processing

 

I use Lightroom as before, but have twiddled a profile that gives me a good starting point from whereon I can make some fine adjustments.

Previously my starting point was so far away from where I wanted to be I 'got lost on the way' trying to get the result I wanted.

 

The results I am getting now are , IMO , quite a bit better than I was getting before.At least now I can see an improvement, and thats good for me.

 

Here a couple of my latest efforts which I think show reasonable progress.

(I thank Armin for convincing me to convert the 1st image to B&W)

 

BTW I want to keep my PP as lean as possible to I am not into using additional plugins.

 

regards

 

andy

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[andym911]

and the 2nd one.

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[andym911]

Oh by the way the purpose of the post is that I thought it might be of interest to others who may be facing the same issues as I was...and of course am interested to get comments and feedback from other users:D

[Guest noah_addis]

I love the M8 for black and white work. As background, I work for a major newspaper that is having serious financial problems, so I will likely be freelancing soon. I'll clearly have to shoot digital for clients, but I've been testing the M8 for a few months to find out if it's good enough to replace film for my personal projects as well.

 

The M8 has proven itself for me for publication, the files look great when reproduced in print and I love working with the camera. I find that the files, in color or B&W, need much less post production than my 5D or 1dMKII files.

 

I made my first 13x19in. prints from the camera the other day, with an Epson 2200 (I know not the best B&W printer, but it's all I have right now). I also printed some 5D files and some with my trusty MP + Tri-x.

 

I was blown away by the leica prints. They are very sharp and have the detail of medium format film or better. The contrast and texture was was much better than the 5d prints (shot with 24/1.4L). The prints had a depth and three-dimensional look similar to my prints from film M cameras. In short, the M8 prints look very similar to MP + Tri-X prints, minus the grain.

 

That last point is of note, as I love the texture and look of Tri-x grain. Also, I agree with andy that I'm not really into a lot of post processing and plugins. I'm a bit of a purist, and if I want film grain, I'll shoot film. I want the results of my work to show the process, and if the process is grainless digital, I don't want to add fake grain. I will take andy's advice and try shooting at 640, most of my tests were at 160 or 320.

 

Most or all of my test prints were made with a 28 summicron.

 

The 5d files were impressive too, but I found they needed more sharpening to match the M8 files and that added more of a digital look. I didn't need to sharpen the M8 files at all.

 

In summary, I was extremely happy with the black & white prints from the M8. Because of the grainless nature of digital, they look like images from a larger format, but due to the small and fast camera it can be used like any other RF. So it's an amazing combination of resolution and portability.

 

A couple of labs are now doing digital fiber-based silver prints (similar to digital-c prints with a lightjet or laserlab machine) and I can't wait to try some of those.

[blakley]

Andy, care to share with us the details of your starting Lightroom profile?

 

I've recently begun using an Epson R2880 printer to make matte-finish B&W prints on fiber-based paper (principally Hahnemuhle Bamboo, which is very nice) from M8 files; the results are very good and as already observed require very little post-processing other than conversion to B&W.

 

The 2880 is so new there are essentially no paper profiles for it yet, so I've been letting the printer handle color management, which is working very well both in color and in B&W. I've tried printing B&W files both as color and in the printer's "advanced B&W" mode; both come out very nicely but the advanced B&W mode seems to darken the prints to some extent, which needs to be adjusted for.

[archi4]

Andy,

these look truly excellent in my opinion and not just "reasonable progress"

The whites in the ashtray without blown highlights impressed me.

Maurice

[caparobertsan]

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HI nice shots!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[peter55]

Hello Andy,

 

I'd like to chime in here and let you know a little of my experiences.

I do not yet own an M8 but the digital cameras I do own are the Canon 1Ds Markll and 20D, 350XT, 300D and new 450XSi and also the Seiko Epson R-D1, Nikon 1DH and Pentax K100D. I have found for B&W that using ISO 1600 and higher adds a bit of texture, very much like film grain. So this is the logic of using your M8 at ISO 640 for B&W, but going a little futher up with the ISO to perhaps ISO1200. Or even higher. You may want to try my suggestions. Good luck and I hope you find something pleasing to you.

 

I like your idea of selecting lenses specifily for their B&W appeal. I have 2 older LTM Leitz lenses the Summaron 3,5cm f/3.5 and the Summitar 5cm f/2, also an LTM Voightlander Color-Skopar 28mm f/3.5 and a Russian LTM Elmar 5cm f/3,5 copy. The old Russian lens gives a very good old style B&W look, possibly because it is not all that sharp. I also have newer Leitz M lenses. I will play around with them a little more. I know my 50mm f/1.4 Summilux first version is a lower contrast lens compared to new versions and I like this lens for B&W. So this leves the Elmar 9cm f/4 and Elmar 13,5cm f/4 to play with now.

 

There are otherthings I have tried, like adding more contrast and sharpness in the in camera settings when shooting B&W.

 

I have used a few plug-ins but I prefere to get the camera settings set up in such a way so as to deliver the B&W I like to see.

 

I read that you do not use plug ins but there are a few that add film grain and another that adds a random grain to a digital file, thus looking even more like film. Lastly have you tried using a film shot of a neutral background with natural grain and then scanned this into your computer, then just add this natural film grain as a layer to your digital B&W shots. The resulting image will be 100% made by you, no plug-in. You can use your favorite film and ISO so it's all your own creation.

[caparobertsan]

Hello Andy,

 

I'd like to chime in here and let you know a little of my experiences.

I do not yet own an M8 but the digital cameras I do own are the Canon 1Ds Markll and 20D, 350XT, 300D and new 450XSi and also the Seiko Epson R-D1, Nikon 1DH and Pentax K100D.

 

Ohhh u have so many cameras!

[j. borger]

I have to agree with you Andy:higher ISO and older lense are the key to good looking B&W pictures with the M8. The first 50mm rigid summicron (ear;ly ''60's) is my favourite lens with the M8, also like the 35/3,5 summaron LTM and 35mm Canon serenar .

[andym911]

Thanks for all the replies...good to see that it is an area of interest to others..I know I certainly spent hundreds of hours trying to get a certain character.

 

To reply to a couple of points raised.

 

Of course I am happy to share my LR profile...as I mentioned it's a good starting point for me.Can someone please advise how I "share" it...or can I just write down the settings?

 

@blakely..I use the r2400 and I agree that in the advanced B&W the prnts do come out a bit darker..am still figuring that out.

 

@good input..I have not yet shot at 1250 but will try it and regarding the film scanning and then "sandwiching"..sounds like an interesting method..hadn't thought about it so will give it a go..tx

@archi4 and caparobertsan..thanks so much, appreciated.

 

@noah..I agree if I really wnat the grain and "organic" look I just shoot film too.

 

thanks and regards

 

andy

[tollie]

Hey Andy...

 

Wonderful BW work. I too would be interested in your LR starting point.

 

I'm sure you save your profile and it is possible to send it out... but for me I would welcome just a written description of the settings.

 

I have also be very pleased with high iso bw files. While I mostly shoot RAW I have been pleased with the rough look that high iso jpegs produces.

 

Cheers,

 

Todd

[melias]

Andy,

 

I too would be interested in your LR profile. I'm going through the same process you are!

 

Thanks,

 

Michael

[fotografr]

Judging from these images, it looks to me like you're right where you want to be with the M8 & b&w. Are you doing b&w captures or converting in post?

[andym911]

Brent,

thanks for the comment.

 

I shoot only RAW and import and convert in Lightroom.I use mainly the color channels and black to get the tones I want.

 

I did try shooting JPEG but that didn't get me very far and soon dropped it.Possibly my skills and not the cameras but I am getting distinctly better results with RAW.

 

Regards

 

Andy

[andym911]

For those that asked please find below my PRESET settings for the B&W conversion.

Unless mentioned the settings are ZERO.

 

Exposure 0.2

Recovery 10

Blacks 10

 

Brightness 45

Contrast 21

 

Grayscale mix as follows:

 

Red -20

Orange -15

Yellow -30

Green -17

Aqua 7

Blue 27

Purple 30

Magenta -5

 

Noise Reduction

Color 30

 

Sharpening

Amount 25

Radius 1.0

Detail 25

 

Camera Calibration ACR 4.4

 

As I said this is my starting point.Depending on the subject, especially skintones I adjust the grayscale mixer in the orange and red to avoid 'blotchy' skin.

 

On the M8 I shoot with a standard exposure compensation of -2/3.

 

I do sometimes sharpen the image in PS Elements as it seems to give me a 'better' final result than the LR sharpening.

 

Hope this helps,

 

andy

[andym911]

and here one of yours truly. (just after vacation so the sun brought my freckles out!)

shot at 320 asa with the old lady Elmar 3,5....clearly I increased contrast here but used the profile above as starting point.

 

regards

 

andy

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[Irakly Shanidze]

In my opinion, Leica M8 is ideal for B&W. In fact, in B&W it is much more versatile than in colour. Images that I am attaching are not photoshopped, just LR.

I would post more examples, but they do not seem to conform to size limitations of the forum. Check my web site.

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[andym911]

Irakly

 

truly inspiring stuff as I have always seen from you...thanks for showing.

 

andy

[andym911]

and just as a follow up here the an example of higher ASA, still with the old Elmar 3,5 but this time at 2500 ASA..

The tones are even smoother IMO , of course there is structure in the image but the look is getting to where I personally want to be.

 

regards

 

andy

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M