Better alternative to Telyt 280 V on M8/9?

[wlaidlaw]

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I have been using a Telyt 280/f4.8 V on my M8 and 9 for some time. It is a series II lens. Frankly the results have been a little disappointing. The lens is quite low contrast and once you get away from the centre of the image, quite soft. I know that it improves at f8 and lower apertures but it is too dark to focus accurately at this setting and by the time you have flicked the aperture ring from f4.8 to whatever pre-set aperture you have selected, the moment for the photo may well have passed. I have been looking for one of the optically superior series 3 lenses for some time with no success. My series II looks to be in good shape and has no detectable fungus or separation. I think its performance is in line with expectations for a 1960's Leica telephoto lens, which at that time, probably was not one of their fortes.

 

Since I would prefer to keep using the Visoflex, what alternative lenses could be used with an adapter? Obviously they would have to have a back focus distance of greater than 27.8mm plus the Visoflex thickness (I am in South Africa, staying with relatives at the moment, so don't have access to my usual range of measuring tools but I seem to recall it is 40mm). I think I am correct that this will rule out all 35mm SLR lenses but there should be a number of MF lenses which would fit the requirements, such as Pentax 67, Pentacon, Kiev etc. Has anyone any experience of doing this and does anyone make any adapters? These lenses are available pretty cheaply nowadays and although a bit on the heavy side, could be the answer.

 

Below is an example of the sort of thing I have been getting from the 280 of a couple of JABS (Just Another Bl***y Springbok). I have not changed this image in any way other than to export it from LR3 with a 950 pix long edge to a JPEG from the M8 DNG. I know I can tweak it about but the starting point is not wonderful. I think it also demonstrates that my shimming of the Nikon screen in the Visoflex, may be resulting in a small amount of front focus but it was optimised to be near perfect at around 3 meters with an Elmar 65mm not the Telyt at around 80 meters.

 

Wilson

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[jaapv]

I had a series I and switched to a series III and it is MUCH better.

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[ldhrads]

Agree with Jaap, while I never had the earlier version, my series III is great.

[Telyt2003]

Dear Wilson,

I like your posts. Please allow me to report a bit on my own experiences with the 280 mm Telyts for Visoflex.

 

I have both the versions 2 and 3 of the 280/4,8 Telyt for Visoflex, and use them often with a Visoflex2/3 with the M8 (but not with an M9), and both with Televit and Focorapid.

As already stated above, the version 3 also in my hands is much better than the previous versions of the 280 Telyt.

I like my Telyt 280 version 3 very much, but I would not judge it "great". However, if you directly compare it to (my) 280 Telyt version 2, the version 3 is really good!

 

In more detail:

Version 2 esp. fully open is weak, it has generally very low contrast and is extremely prone to stray light.

I always used it stopped down to the aperture of 5,6-8 or 8. The performance of version 2 varies a lot among individual lenses, because they sometimes have air bubbles enclosed in the glass of the lens elements (mine does) that lower the contrast even more.

Version 3 is much better at 4,8, has generally better, but still low, contrast, and is already good enough (for me) at 5,6 where I mostly use it.

 

In general, all Visoflex lenses strongly profit form the reduced M8 format. Thus, I would certainly tend to crop images down (to approx. the M8 format), if I were using the M9 with Visoflex telyts.

 

All versions of the 280 Telyt apparently profit from avoiding their respective focusing helicoids! Especially in the Televit rapid focusing device their heads show higher contrast (the helicoids are narrower, esp. that of version 2, and glossy inside).

 

If you can cope with the TELEVIT, I would recommand using it, also with version 3!

Added value of the Televit is much faster focusing (the helicoids of verison 2 and 3 appear very slow to me, and the helicoid of version 3 is nearly as heavy as the Televit!),

and much closer focusing with the Televit (2 m instead of only 3,5 m!).

 

To my experience, the 280 Telyt version 3 head in the Televit is by far the best 280 mm focal length that you can get for the Visoflex.

The only drawback may be that you should directly look for a complete set with Televit and the necessary adapter 14138 for the lens head (see my PM with a recent dealer's offer).

 

I don't think that you will (easily) find a better lens among the medium format offerings.

On the contrary, the 280 Telyt for Visoflex has often been adapted in the other direction: As to be mounted on medium format cameras.

 

Best,

Telyt2003

[Telyt2003]

Dear Wilson,

I like your posts. Please allow me to report a bit on my own experience with the 280 mm Telyts for Visoflex.

 

I have both the versions 2 and 3 of the 280/4,8 Telyt for Visoflex, and use them often with a Visoflex2/3 on the M8 (but not with an M9), and both with Televit and Focorapid.

As already stated above, the version 3 also in my hands is much better than the previous versions of the 280 Telyt.

I like my Telyt 280 version 3 very much, but I would not judge it "great". However, if you directly compare it to (my) 280 Telyt version 2, the version 3 is really good!

 

In more detail:

Version 2 esp. fully open is weak, it has generelly very low contrast and is extremely prone to stray light.

I always used it stopped down to the aperture of 5,6-8 or 8. The performance of version 2 varies a lot among individual lenses, because they sometimes have air bubbles enclosed in the glass of the lens elements (mine does) that lower the contrast even more.

Version 3 is better at 4,8, has generally better, but still low, contrast, and is already good enough (for me) at 5,6 where I mostly use it.

 

In general, all my Visoflex lenses strongly profit form the reduced M8 format. Thus, I would certainly tend to crop images down (to approx. the M8 format), if I were using the M9 with Visoflex Telyts, including the 280 Telyt version 3.

 

All versions of the 280 Telyt apparently profit from avoiding their respective focusing helicoids! Especially in the Televit rapid focusing device their heads show higher contrast (the helicoids are narrower, esp. that of version 2, and glossy inside).

 

If you can cope with the TELEVIT, I would recommand using it, also with version 3.

Added value of the Televit is much faster focusing (the helicoids of verison 2 and 3 appear very slow to me, and the helicoid of version 3 is nearly as heavy as the Televit!),

and much closer focusing with the Televit (2 m instead of only 3,5 m!).

 

To my experience, the 280 Telyt version 3 head in the Televit is by far the best 280 mm focal length that you can get for the Visoflex.

The only drawback may be that you should directly look for a complete set with Televit and the necessary adapter 14138 for the lens head (see my PM with a recent dealer's offer, not mine).

 

I don't think that you will (easily) find a better lens among the medium format offerings.

On the contrary, the 280 Telyt for Visoflex has often been adapted in the other direction: As to be mounted on medium format cameras.

 

Best,

Telyt2003

 

PS: Example images will follow.

[Telyt2003]

Please allow me a side-view (not off topic) in favour of the Telyt 280/4,8 version 3:

An alternative to using 280 mm Telyt heads with their helicoids or the heavy Televit (1,2 kg) is to use the smaller and lighter, but sadly rare, Focorapid (600 gr.). In the Focorapid, the head of the Telyt 280 version 3 is not heavier than the complete Telyt 280 version 3 with its proper helicoid.

However, in the Focorapid it is much easier and faster to focus (and the same device also takes the heads of 200 and -older- 135 mm objectives).

 

The small rapid manual focusing device Focorapid can take the heads of all 280/4,8 mm Visoflex objectives (didn't check version 1). The head of the 280/4,8 Telyt version 2 can be screwed in via the adpater 14112 or without, directly. The optically better head of the 280/4,8 Telyt version 3 needs a minor modification before it can be used on the Focorapid in the same way (both with and without adapter).

The Focorapid focusing mechanism works much smoother, if weight and length is reduced in front of it. This is why I would recommand to skip adapter 14112 and to screw the heads of the 280/4,8 Telyts directly into the Focorapid, if possible. 1-2 rings 16469 between Focorapid and camera/Visoflex replace the missing length of the adapter if needed.

The Focorapid with 280 mm Telyt head can be stabilised quite well with the Novoflex Pistock-C.

 

The example image shows an owl in a zoo. The head of the 280/4,8 Telyt version 3 in the Focorapid, probably at 5,6, sunshade retracted, filter thread of lens head (carries S8 IR-cut filter) put directly onto fence (small squares, approx. 3 cm wide), Visoflex 2 (finder of Visoflex 3), M8; distance approx. 3 meters, uncropped.

 

Glossar:

Telyt 280/4,8 version 1: mantled helicoid for Visoflex 1 screw-mount, silver rings,

Telyt 280/4,8 version 2: small helicoid for Visoflex 1 screw-mount, all black (most common),

Telyt 280/4,8 version 3: heavy helicoid for Visoflex 2/3 M-bajonet, all black (last version, rarer)

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[Telyt2003]

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... The head of the 280/4,8 Telyt version 2 can be screwed in via the adpater 14112 or without, directly. The optically better head of the 280/4,8 Telyt version 3 needs a minor modification before it can be used on the Focorapid in the same way (both with and without adapter).

...

Sorry, my mistake. The following is correct:

The head of the 280/4,8 Telyt version 3 needs a minor modification before it can be used on the Focorapid ONLY WITHOUT adapter 14112.

(The head of version 3 can NOT be screwed into the adapter 14112. Albeit the threads are the same, they do not engage for spatial reasons).

Telyt2003

 

PS: Please ignore my first post in this thread (post #4). It is a duplication of my second post (post #5).

Edited June 11, 2011 by Telyt2003
Test

[wlaidlaw]

Sorry, my mistake. The following is correct:

The head of the 280/4,8 Telyt version 3 needs a minor modification before it can be used on the Focorapid ONLY WITHOUT adapter 14112.

(The head of version 3 can NOT be screwed into the adapter 14112. Albeit the threads are the same, they do not engage for spatial reasons).

Telyt2003

 

PS: Please ignore my first post in this thread (post #4). It is a duplication of my second post (post #5).

 

Can you remind me what adapter I need to use my Telyt V2 head with a Televit. I presume it is an adapter that couples to the bayonet of the Televit and has an internal thread for the Telyt head.

 

Wilson

[Telyt2003]

Can you remind me what adapter I need to use my Telyt V2 head with a Televit. I presume it is an adapter that couples to the bayonet of the Televit and has an internal thread for the Telyt head.

 

Wilson

 

Hi Wilson,

yes, what you need is the Televit adapter 14138 that works as you describe it.

This adapter can be used to adapt all (3) versions of the Telyt 280/4,8 heads to the Televit (For version 1, I can only tell from the literature, didn't check it myself).

Telyt2003

[wlaidlaw]

BTW, I had a look inside the helicoid of my V2 Telyt 280 while I was remounting the head just now. The interior is all lined either with black flock or black cotton velvet. If it was not done at manufacture (it is a latish V2 at 2122703), it has been done exceedingly professionally. I went through all my bag of various filter adapters and Leica adapters, trying to find something that might enable me to fit the head onto a Novoflex bellows (L39 at both ends) as a lightweight alternative to the Televit. However looking at the threads on the Telyt head, I think it is an 0.5mm pitch thread, rather than the 0.75mm threads on most filter step up adapters. I did not have an L39 to E46 anyway. Most of my rings are 41.5mm to larger and various sizes up to E52 to use B+W infra-red, Wratten and polarising filters, which I always buy in 52mm.

 

Wilson

[Washington]

Boy, the Leica Teyt is a lovely machine.

[Telyt2003]

Boy, the Leica Teyt is a lovely machine.

 

Hi Washington,

with the head of the Telyt 280/4,8 in the Focorapid, you can even approach "action photography", AND you can use R-apo-extenders with the Visoflex-M-system , AND still focus to infinity .

 

For this photo (feeding of seals in a zoo, uncropped, purples desaturated), I used the head of the Telyt 280/4,8 type3 (slightly modified) without the adapter 14112, directly screwed into the Focorapid (the type2 head needs no modification to do this).

Omitting the Focorapid adapter 14112 (a simple heavy distance ring) in FRONT of the Focorapid results, as said, in a much more "fluent" action of the Focorapid's focusing mechanism.

In addition, you can then combine the 280 Telyt-Focorapid with an (1,4x) Apo-Extender-R without loosing infinity focus, even when the whole is used with Visoflex2/3 and M8 (as was the case in this example)!

 

The reason is simple: The additional length of the adapter 22228 (to adapt the R-extender to the Visoflex2/3) and the greater depth of the Visoflex2/3 (as compared to the R's reflex housing) BEHIND the extender are (over-)compensated for by the missing length of the adapter 14112 in FRONT of the extender.

Final focus range can be shifted by playing around with 1 or 2 rings 16469/OUFRO.

 

In this example, the formula was:

Telyt 280/4,8 type3 head (modified) - Focorapid (without adapter 14112) - (16469 optional) - 14167 - 1,4x Apo-Extender-R - 22228 - Visoflex2 (with finder of Visoflex3) - M8.

Focusing range from below 4 m to infinity (without the 16469), from below 3 m to more than 20 m (with the 16469).

 

Best,

Telyt2003

 

PS: For sure, it is simplier to adapt the Telyt 280-Focorapid-Extender-R directly to an R-(compatible) camera. However, I normally only carry the M8, and add the Focorapid with 1,4x Apo-Extender-R and Telyt 280-head for macro-at-a-distance and long reach, if needed. Stabilisation with Novoflex Pistock-C (shoulder stock).

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Edited June 14, 2011 by Telyt2003
typos

[Telyt2003]

BTW, I had a look inside the helicoid of my V2 Telyt 280 while I was remounting the head just now. The interior is all lined either with black flock or black cotton velvet. If it was not done at manufacture (it is a latish V2 at 2122703), it has been done exceedingly professionally.

..., trying to find something that might enable me to fit the head onto a Novoflex bellows (L39 at both ends) as a lightweight alternative to the Televit. However looking at the threads on the Telyt head, I think it is an 0.5mm pitch thread, rather than the 0.75mm threads on most filter step up adapters. ...

 

Wilson

 

Hi Wilson,

 

1) Interesting that your Telyt 280/4,8 version/type 2 (from approx. 1965) has the velvet inside. Mine (from the first batch in 1961) is glossy inside.

Either, Leitz did this in later production version/type 2 lenses, or somebody did this after buying the lens (I remember having read that such self-made velvet applications were quite common formerly).

Does anybody know?

 

2) Do you exclude the Leitz bellows 2?

I would be interested to know what would be the advantage of the Novoflex bellows (I don't know it very well).

 

Did I mention that the best lightweight alternative to the Televit with a 280 mm Telyt would be a Focorapid with a 280 mm Telyt ?? which would be even "extendible" to at least 400 mm (please see above).

 

Telyt2003

Edited June 14, 2011 by Telyt2003
typos

[wlaidlaw]

I wonder if it is time that Leica brought out a Viso IV. I have noticed Viso prices climbing steadily. I was amazed how much I got for my Viso II, when you consider it can only be used with later M's with the chimney finder. As I can use my Viso III with my M4 but not the Viso II with M8 and 9, the II was just not needed. Adapters are also getting difficult to find and expensive as well. I would guess that the final toll being rung for the R line by Leica has something to do with this. For the last week, I have been trying to track down a 14138 without success. Doug Herr had 2 copies (non Leica ones) but both are gone.

 

The advantage of the Novoflex bayonet - it was very cheap! I think I paid £2.50 for it some years ago. Downside is that adapters for it are either rare, expensive or both. I have the LEIEL to fit the Elmar 65 head in the bellows but I want the recessed version of this, LEICUL maybe or something like that, to get further focus for document copying.

 

Wilson

Edited June 14, 2011 by wlaidlaw

[Telyt2003]

... I was amazed how much I got for my Viso II, when you consider it can only be used with later M's with the chimney finder. As I can use my Viso III with my M4 but not the Viso II with M8 and 9, the II was just not needed. Adapters are also getting difficult to find and expensive as well. ...

Wilson

 

Hi Wilson,

 

It is a pity that you sold your Visoflex 2!

The Visoflex 2 mirror reflex housing can be used with the later Ms (including the M8/9), you only have to take care that you use the 4x magnifier finder from the Visoflex 3 with it.

 

When using Visoflexes with the M8, I am combining the following set most of the time: Visoflex 2 housing, but finder of the Visoflex 3.

 

I don't know how you feel over the Visoflex 2, but I like it more than the Visoflex 3 (detailed reasons I have given in the Visoflex interest group).

I especially like that the release lever of the Visoflex 2 sits directly on top of the M8's release button (Ok, not DIRECTLY on top, but at least there is no big gap as with the Visoflex 3)! Moreover the Visoflex 2 is lighter, smaller, quieter and produces less shake than the Visoflex 3.

Be careful when fitting the Visoflex 2 to (later) Ms/M8/9: Some Visoflex 2 do not directly fit my M8 (The M-bayonet of the Visoflex 2 apparently was orientable, and some Visoflex 2 housings sit slightly obliquely on M cameras, so that the shutter button may be permanently depressed).

 

Telyt2003

 

PS: My unemployed film transport reflex immediately felt comfortable with bringing the mirror back into position manually (as needed with the Visoflex 2).

Edited June 14, 2011 by Telyt2003
typo