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#002 - Leica Stopps Selling R-System


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canon 5d's are getting cheaper and cheaper. have the mirror shaved and get a couple of confirmation adaptors and you have a full-frame r setup.

 

here are dance pics taken last week with the 90 2.8 and 5d. had to shoot wide open and focusing hard to do in this situation. under better conditions...

 

1st choreography critique 09 Photo Gallery by wayne pease at pbase.com

That's exactly what I did before moving to the M8. It is much nicer than using Canon glass, but in the end it sucks. Canon's focusing screens are awful for focusing manually, and the Brightscreen was not that great either. I didn't try the Maxwell screen though. Furthermore, Canon cameras' support for MF lenses is non-existent. The camera says that there is no lens there.

 

Nikon or Sony would be the way to go here, but both of those require swapping out the mount. There is some work underway to get this properly working.

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Any recommendations on what one should do with the R lenses and R camera bodies I currently own? I have been tempted to go to the dark side and buy a Canon or Nikon system. My desire is to have a system for action photos.

 

Thanks in advance for all the comments.

 

ryee3:confused:

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There are two different things we’re discussing here: the existing R lenses and a Leica made DSLR system. Till now we referred to these as the “R”. But the times they’re a change, Leica has to come up with a DSLR that is comparable to other makers –technically & vice verse. I truly believe that the future (the sooner the better) is a universal mount that serves all main DSLR brands. Adapters will be available for any pre FILM lenses from any brand but the quality of the pictures will slightly stay under than what the new DIGITAL lenses will produce. Pre-lens-usability is extremely important to keep costumers satisfied but far not the mainstream issue for camera builders (market wise). The S line will be (or is now) the unique Lecaish item, the flagship of the future the pro equipment (& also the current show off item –no problem with that, Leica is stylish). M is the heritage (not a burden) that Leica will carry on.

 

Regards,

Jeno

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Worth to buy brand new R9 and lenses now? The discount is quite big......:confused:

 

Glaser's in USA was selling out of their R9s for $1500 US and that's new w/ a 3 year warranty. They have one on Ebay for this price. Seems like a good deal if you're a film person.

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Leica will loose many, many loyal customers if they stop supporting the R system. The M8 is great, but it is not a DSLR. With 3 R bodies and 6 R lenses I would be looking at Nikon as an alternative upgrade, and I have been dedicated to Leica cameras since 1982.

With the detachable DMR back, Leica has the option of upgrading the digital section for R8 & R9 without the cost of designing a complete new camera. Just upgrade the sensor and software.

All R owners need to contact Leica to express their concern and willingness to continue supporting the R system if the new R10 or DMR v2 is produced. Times are tough, Leica needs to know R system owners all over the World want to keep using our expensive and wonderful R Leicas.

Brooks Atlanta, GA

 

 

You're absolutely right!!!!!

Regards

Dikdik

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I truly believe that the future (the sooner the better) is a universal mount that serves all main DSLR brands. Adapters will be available for any pre FILM lenses from any brand...

 

Far too many mechanical and electrical compatibility issues for that ever to happen and for the resulting remain reasonably priced. Not to mention the problem of the differing film/sensor to flange distances.

 

Also manufacturers quite like the idea of selling people lenses as well as bodies.

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I was actually glad that Leica stopped both R9 and R lenses altogether. It simplifies the whole thing. Either R mount will be made available to electronic company like Panasonic to give us 24 Mp full frame L10 or we will have to do with 5D MkII, where Canon 24-70/2.8 zoom lens for all around is good. For the rest I will use my superb Leica lenses as prime lenses with adaptor. I have not seen quality of the optics equivalent to my 19/2.8; 28/2.8, 50/2, 100/2.8 or 180/3.4 anywhere. Actually R owners will become more purist than M owners because of the pain suffered by stepping down the lens after focusing.

With advertising market today even Leica must know that introduction of S2 was mistimed.

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Leica will loose many, many loyal customers if they stop supporting the R system. The M8 is great, but it is not a DSLR. With 3 R bodies and 6 R lenses I would be looking at Nikon as an alternative upgrade, and I have been dedicated to Leica cameras since 1982.

With the detachable DMR back, Leica has the option of upgrading the digital section for R8 & R9 without the cost of designing a complete new camera. Just upgrade the sensor and software.

All R owners need to contact Leica to express their concern and willingness to continue supporting the R system if the new R10 or DMR v2 is produced. Times are tough, Leica needs to know R system owners all over the World want to keep using our expensive and wonderful R Leicas.

Brooks Atlanta, GA

 

...that's what a lot of R-users were thinking all the time, question is: how long they will wait and if they will accept the high prices then.The Leica users are the only one who can't earn any money with a full-framed sensor without taking bodies from other companies, and imagine: that's in the year 2009!

What would probably apple-users say and do, if they only could use photoshop vers. 7.0 but not CS4 on their machines?

Im wondering: could it be difficult to produce some full-frame CMOS sensor on a DMR, before the clients definitly change to Sigma, Canon and whatever? Some S2 with some professional lenses will be good for next generation of photographers, but if they will see how the older R-owners had been left behind all the time yet, some new customers will probably reflect more where to spend their money.

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Also manufacturers quite like the idea of selling people lenses as well as bodies.

 

As we get further off the film era we say goodbye to all equipments that belonged to those times -first bodies then lenses & that is only the capturing side, post procedure has already changed to fully digital. Yes, I know that glass from the past 50+ years can match my M8, & will serve the M9, but that is what Ms are all about: tradition, rather than sensible design (SD card slot & bottom plate misery to name but one) & yes I love my M8 as it is & not asking for any changes regarding this “orthodox” fashion, as so many others I too like taking pictures with M cameras & not only for the results but also for the M-ish feeling. The M range will always stay a film camera despite it produces digital frames that’s why it will survive for so long. The S was designed with a processor in mind & happily it fits into the stereotype that the public calls: CAMERA. It resembles to a camera so it is acceptable. These transitional years will fade away, & those using PRE lenses on digital bodies will keep this habit as long as it serves their needs or until they can’t afford an equivalent DIGITAL lens with the same/better image quality. This goes for the R. Leica has not solved the DSLR question yet.

 

In long term the S2 doctrine will be the fundamental way of camera/lens designing: building a system up form the ground, & if it’s good enough (or the media works properly) it will sell. The risk seems to be high but the step is needed to be taken. This step is a good excuse for DSLR builders to “create” a new, universal mount; so they keep up making both bodies & lenses, absolutely comparable, I still think that this is the future. Costumers will decide what to dig into; cost & emotions being the main factors. Camera makers are most interested in selling their products, on a more the better basis, where buying is the keyword.

 

Regards,

Jeno

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I'm surprised Leica stopped production w/o having a replacement in hand. That tells me either the R10 et. al. is on the near horizon, or, more likely, R stuff was selling so poorly that new R equipment will still be on dealer's shelfs for years to come, despite the discontinuation. Although w/ some of the tasty deals on new R stuff I've seen floating around the web, those shelves may clear quickly.

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I think it's right to draw a line under the R system which has been languishing for a while. Aside from the DMR, how long is it since there was anything new?

 

I think it's reasonable to assume an R9/DMR replacement will be much more closely related to the S-2 than to the R9; shared parts and especially firmware are the only way this camera can come to market. Instead of thinking of an R10 (can hardly be called that now), I think we should instead think of an S-20.

 

Key for Leica is that lens mount decision. I can think of the two cameras as being FF and cropped sensor siblings except FF now means 45 * 30 mm and the S-20 has a 1.25 crop factor. Same lens mount (including a 6mm increase in register distance), allowing S lenses to be mounted on the new camera and (lower cost) crop factor lenses to be used on both cameras with the S-2 operating in a cropped mode. Same AF, same aperture control, the lenses with central shutters are already going to be available without them fitted, so keep that for the S-2 only. I really don't think Leica want to be running a third propietary lens mount.

 

We've been here before of course, Nikon Fx/Dx and Canon equivalents except Leica push the sensor sizes up a notch. The S-20 would compete head on with the Nikon D3x and Canon EOS 1Ds III in terms of sensor resolution.

 

The "only" fly in the ointment is then what to do about legacy R lenses. Some sort of adapter to allow the R lenses to be recessed 6mm into the S-20 lens throat?

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I don't quite understand why Leica can't do with the R what Nikon did with the F-mount, which was to add the electronics while keeping the compatibility at some level. The R mount, it seems from what I read, should have more room to do that than the F mount. We know the R lens can cover FF, and that they are some of the best lenses ever made -- *ever* made -- so why not?

 

With usable legacy lenses, a new R seems to make a lot more sense than a new S, especially since there still seems to be room for improvement in the technology. In a couple of years or a couple of generations, Nikon and Canon will be selling DSLRs with pixel counts in the thirties, just like the S, at half the price of the S for bigger, more complete systems.

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The S-20 would compete head on with the Nikon D3x and Canon EOS 1Ds III in terms of sensor resolution.

 

The "only" fly in the ointment is then what to do about legacy R lenses. Some sort of adapter to allow the R lenses to be recessed 6mm into the S-20 lens throat?

 

Mark, Kodak sensors have no edge in resolution when compared to the Canon/Sony/Nikon sensors when carved into the same size. The differences we're seeing are mainly about Leica's clear advantage in optics, if you've tried adapting a R lens on a Canon you'll know what I'm talking about. You can get a ZF lens on your D3x and see immediately.

 

You suggestions are good but Leica already said they'll build an adapter for the S lens on a future "R" body so they've not share the same mechanical mount - very unlikely at least.

 

On the other hand, I highly suspect there's any chance that they'll spec the future R too close to the S or they'll bite each other, 2 separate lines with a 1.25x cropping factor make no good business nor technological sense imho.

 

I don't mind Leica scrapping the R mount (even completely) at all, but if they do so, now it's their best chance to get everything right from the beginning. IMO they should do a high end hybrid camera like the Samsung NX utilizing an APS-C sensor and allow adapting R lense and M lenses. This could replace their R and M systems altogether.

 

It's only that hard feeling, all in a sudden my greatest gears aren't that great anymore ... but I can still find good use of my R lenses with many gears while waiting for the next latest and greatest.

 

Heck, by the time paying forum members finish their beta testing with the S2 and give it a green light, I may change my mind! :)

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We know the R lens can cover FF, and that they are some of the best lenses ever made -- *ever* made -- so why not?

 

That's exactly why I'm so against the mount change, John ... when I first heard about it in 2006 I thought the guy was totally joking.

 

Quite simply, many of these R lenses are already world beaters, you can't draw a line straighter than a straight line.

 

But history just keeps repeating itself amazingly, and Leica has never been a company that will listen ... never mind, whatever they'll do, they've got my blessings!

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You can get a ZF lens on your D3x and see immediately.

 

Yes, I toy with the idea of putting Zeiss ZF and converted Leica R glass on my D3x but I always come back to wanting to be able to meter wide open and stop down automatically. I left stop-down metering behind in the 70s with a Praktica and Meyer Optik Orestor lens.

 

I think it's a pity that Zeiss don't support at least these aspects, after all, if Sigma can do it, why not Zeiss?

 

I think the old Leica R mount with the cams and ROM connections is a lot of baggage to carry forwards into a new camera.

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I think the old Leica R mount with the cams and ROM connections is a lot of baggage to carry forwards into a new camera.

 

Let's assume the only existing R lenses that the R10 will be able to use and retain full functionality are the ROM ones. The ROM connections tell the camera what aperture the lens is at don't they? That's the open aperture metering issue solved. All they would then need is a mechanical connection to stop down the lens when the shutter is pressed. This could be built into the body, or it could be an electical 'motor' built into the adaptor (assuming there was space).

 

By limiting the camera to ROM lenses all the issues associated with mechanical cams could be ignored, and maybe non-ROM lenses could still be used in stop down mode.

 

Quite prepared for this idea to be ripped to shreds.

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