1/4000 is forever?

[uhoh7]

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I'd heard some talk perhaps a later firmware might enable higher shutter speed...

 

Mechanical shutters can't go higher than 4k?

 

1/8000 is so nice because you can shoot really fast in the bright without a ND.

[01af]

1/4000 s is pretty damn fast. I wouldn't want a shutter in my M camera that can do 1/8000 s because it would have to be louder or bulkier or less durable or any combination thereof. Thank you, but no thanks.

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[Ecar]

There's always the original M8...

Mine still has the 1/8000 shutter working as intended (including the unmistakable clunky/wizzing sound...) - although the camera hasn't seen much use lately and the shutter count is probably still pretty low.

I'd also like a faster shutter sometimes, but in all fairness 1/4000 is enough for 99% of the pictures I take and most of the remaining 1% would need an insanely fast speed to avoid an ND.

[jip]

My Leica R8 has a 1/8000 shutter speed... the Leica S has 1/4000 but has a sensor significantly larger than fullframe so this can't be the problem...

 

1/6000 or 1/8000 should be doable but they simply don't. 

 

Also I rarely need it with a base ISO of 100... 

[lct]

Been using 1/8000s for 10+ years, including on entry (Nikon D70) and smaller (Sony A7s) cameras. Doesn't make more noise than slower shutter speeds, let alone in silent shutter mode needless to say. "Das Wesentliche" oblige i guess...

[UliWer]

In a Daniel/ van Oeynhausen interview they said, that electronic shutter with shorter shutter times was planned for the M10, but left out since it took too much time to develop and they had a time limit when the camera should be presented.

 

They added that electronic shutter might be added by firmware, if there was "enough demand" for it.

 

So it might take some more time than 1/4000 sec, though it is not ruled out.

Edited March 27, 2017 by UliWer

[digitalfx]

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According to Leica, the shutter mechanism in the M would be too big if 1/8000 was included.

The only hope of higher shutter speeds would be electronic, as its not possible to add faster shutter speeds to the physical shutter via FW.

[jaapv]

Been using 1/8000s for 10+ years, including on entry (Nikon D70) and smaller (Sony A7s) cameras. Doesn't make more noise than slower shutter speeds, let alone in silent shutter mode needless to say. "Das Wesentliche" oblige i guess...

well, it made quite a difference on the M8 / M8-2

[jdlaing]

Yes. It is forever.

[M11 for me]

How does the shutter actually work? If it works like on a Canon then the speed is always the same wether you have 1/2000 or 1/4000 or then the 1/8000. Just the opening of the curtain gets narrower. Am I right? If so, why should 1/8000 not work?

[Ko.Fe.]

I'm very old fashion photographer. My first camera to get visible pictures was RF camera with 1/500 maximum speed. I'm still able to use it because it has very simple shutter, which is serviceable by DIY.

I'm so old school, I remember Mason Resnick article "My Street Photography Workshop With Garry Winogrand", I even translated it (with permission) to Russian audience. Quote from this article:

"nice light--1/250 second at f/8." 

What is the purpose and reason to buy Leica M and expecting it to be like Canonikon DSLR? I think, if Winogrand could handle M10, he would keep it around 1/1000 (which is also know as preferable shutter speed for street photography)  and bump ISO all way up to have it at f16. To me as old fashion RF, Leica user, those cameras are for close action which lasts only few seconds. I need small aperture and 1/500, 1/1000 shutter speed for it. 

[otto.f]

According to the sunny f16 rule, you need 1/125 at f16 in bright sunny daylight. Which means that on your Bounty Island vacation, it would take 1/32000 for a Noctilux 0.95 at full aperture on an M10, if you want to get rid of the ND hustle. Or the next sensor should have a base ISO of 25, good old Kodachrome/Agfapan values, with a shutter of 1/8000. So Leica lenses are way ahead of Leica bodies, one way or another. So stick to your Elmarits and Summarons,

Edited March 27, 2017 by otto.f

[digitalfx]

How does the shutter actually work? If it works like on a Canon then the speed is always the same wether you have 1/2000 or 1/4000 or then the 1/8000. Just the opening of the curtain gets narrower. Am I right? If so, why should 1/8000 not work?

 

 

Im not sure, but in the interviews with Leica on the Red Dot Forum they said it was an entirely new shutter, smaller than previous and that it had limitations because of the new size.

[jaapv]

There is a diffraction problem with a narrow slit, so a 8000 shutter will have to run twice a fast.

[pico]

Has anyone images made at 1/4000 or faster which shows the speed advantage? Please post!

I  doubt anyone will respond.

.

Edited March 27, 2017 by pico

[uhoh7]

There is a diffraction problem with a narrow slit, so a 8000 shutter will have to run twice a fast.

TY for that, sir. I think many would love a longer explanation, but you are busy.

 

For those not very familiar, like me with the "slit"

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Focal-plane_shutter

 

It has me wondering if the A7 cameras are mechanical at 1/8000?

Edited March 27, 2017 by uhoh7

[earleygallery]

Surely if having a 1/8000th shutter speed is important to you then you need to buy a different camera. Get the right tool for the job. 

[zlatkob]

How does the shutter actually work? If it works like on a Canon then the speed is always the same wether you have 1/2000 or 1/4000 or then the 1/8000. Just the opening of the curtain gets narrower. Am I right? If so, why should 1/8000 not work?

 

It should work the same.  A Canon 5D3 does 1/8000 by narrowing the curtain, as you note.  It can also shoot in a very quiet mode.  And the shutter is very durable.

[jaapv]

TY for that, sir. I think many would love a longer explanation, but you are busy.

 

For those not very familiar, like me with the "slit"

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Focal-plane_shutter

 

It has me wondering if the A7 cameras are mechanical at 1/8000?

At the speed that Leica runs their shutter (designed to be as quiet as possible), any slit width that would produce 1/8000th would be so narrow as to produce diffraction. So the only solution would be to increase the speed of the shutter curtains, not to narrow the split, which would make the shutter more noisy. Leica does not build their own shutters BTW, but buys them from Copal/Seiko, like many major camera makers.

The M8 had an 1/8000th shutter, but after complaints about the noise, they halved the curtain speed for the M8-2.

 

The best solution for high shutter speeds, say up to 1/16000th would be an electronic shutter, i.e. fast read out of the sensor.

 

However, I doubt whether Leica could implement this on the M10, as it would come with a number of implications. A modern camera would need to have 4K capability, to offer focus stacking, post-focus and in-camera panorama options  and to reduce the rolling shutter effect, to make full competitive use of an electronic shutter. It is very doubtful whether the M10 has the processing power and heat management to enable these features. After all, the M10 is not even able to offer video, and certainly not 4K video.

We will probably have to wait for the M11 for meaningful electronic shutter speeds, if at all.

 

BTW, the A7 has an electronic first curtain shutter to enable 1/8000th.

Canon's quiet shutter mode comes at the expense of more shutter lag and a slower mirror (AKA blackout). but is a viable compromise if one needs a quiet DSLR.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[uhoh7]

At the speed that Leica runs their shutter (designed to be as quiet as possible), any slit width that would produce 1/8000th would be so narrow as to produce diffraction. So the only solution would be to increase the speed of the shutter curtains, not to narrow the split, which would make the shutter more noisy. Leica does not build their own shutters BTW, but buys them from Copal/Seiko, like many major camera makers.

The M8 had an 1/8000th shutter, but after complaints about the noise, they halved the curtain speed for the M8-2.

 

The best solution for high shutter speeds, say up to 1/16000th would be an electronic shutter, i.e. fast read out of the sensor.

 

However, I doubt whether Leica could implement this on the M10, as it would come with a number of implications. A modern camera would need to have 4K capability, to offer focus stacking, post-focus and in-camera panorama options  and to reduce the rolling shutter effect, to make full competitive use of an electronic shutter. It is very doubtful whether the M10 has the processing power and heat management to enable these features. After all, the M10 is not even able to offer video, and certainly not 4K video.

We will probably have to wait for the M11 for meaningful electronic shutter speeds, if at all.

 

BTW, the A7 has an electronic first curtain shutter to enable 1/8000th.

Canon's quiet shutter mode comes at the expense of more shutter lag and a slower mirror (AKA blackout). but is a viable compromise if one needs a quiet DSLR.

TY for the excellent post.

 

Some general response to posts above:

 

1) I don't think 1/4000 is a "deal-breaker", but considering M8 had 1/8000 I certainly think it's a reasonable question.

 

2) On the Sony A7, you always use mechanical shutter over about 1000. It goes to 8000. Same was true on the Nex-5. When you don't you can get this effect:

dark top by unoh7, on Flickr

 

This has been edited, and RAW it's pretty a pretty dramatic under exposure on the top. I also see this on the A7, as do many others.

 

Now, perhaps there is some aspect of EFC which helps the mechanical shutter do 8k? Maybe Canikon is fine with EFC fast.

 

The A7 mechanical shutter is quite loud. This has been improved on the r2, which also has a silent shutter.

 

I'm not trying to say: "Sony is better!" The Sonys have all sorts of issues, obviously. I'm just trying to understand the choices Leica has made with the M10. After all the original A7 body is very slim. But perhaps of note, the old 5cm LTM Elmar cannot collapse into the A7, while it can (unofficially) collapse into the M9, which implies the whole shutter mech is standing out further.

 

Here the A7r2 shutter in slow motion:

 

Using the A7, modded for M lenses, often, what is annoying is that you do need to switch from EFC (quieter and less vibration) and Mechanical (high speed) all the time, and the switch cannot be mapped to a button (unless I'm wrong).

 

I'm surprised at the vigorous defense of 1/4000, since high speed daylight shots with the nocti are iconic. On a bright day even f/1.4 is impossible with 1/4000, though maybe the M10 can bring down highlights from F/2. I would certainly agree a quiet shutter is more important than 1/8000. But there does seem to be some confusion as to if the M10 shutter does have an unused EFC capability, though as we see it might be problematic at 1/8000 anyway, as the Sony and Nikon shutters are.

 

1/8000 is not video. It's useful in still photography with M lenses. Critical, obviously not.

 

No camera hits full potential. The A7r2, among many issues has ridiculous batteries, as do many EVIL FF cameras. XT-2 even worse batteries. But point that out, and always defenders rush to claim it's not an issue. Logically the M10 would have 8k shutter and weight not more than the M9. The M10 strong points, ISO, ORF, footprint, etc, may make those issues "OK" for almost everyone, but doesn't mean they aren't there.

 

They are, and discussion seems natural. For example, why use brass if you are going to chrome paint it anyway? M262 shows one obvious way the M10 could have been lighter, and possibly might have a "light version" in future....maybe with a faster shutter too

Edited March 29, 2017 by uhoh7