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Max $6k for Initial Lens Kit for M10: 35, 50 options-- help me narrow down. Long-ish read!


eyeheartny

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I'm totally not trying to be argumentative, truly-- but with shipping, tax, and insurance, it's $588 for 3 days. I may end up doing that but those rental rates just feel like highway robbery to me considering how often they can rent those out. As I said, I don't have a problem paying for quality, but I'm acutely sensitive to not being ripped off.

So follow my next suggestion, which has been echoed here several times... buy mint used and sell it if you don't like it.

 

I'm willing to bet that you won't sell a 50 Summilux or s 50 Summicron, or a 35 Summicron, or any number of other quality options. You're overthinking this IMO.... just pick one lens from a reputable source and get to making pictures and prints. No two people will get the same results when all is said and done.

 

Jeff

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Good point. I use a viewfinder app on iPhone for this, works from 35mm and longer without using external phone lenses.

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Thanks, that's worth considering. I can swing the extra $300, not a problem.  I will admit to being not sure about the 28mm length...it feels a little "nowhere" to me. When I shot with the 28-70 zoom on a dSLR, the shots at 28mm always felt either a little cramped for wide-angle (I wanted more room) or not tight enough...when I mention that I had some shots clustered there it was because I think was wanting a wider angle and couldn't get it. Budget aside, what's making you think that the 28 is preferable to a 35? 

 

In terms of the 50 recommendation, do you think the 50 Summicron is noticeably less good than the 50 Summilux in terms of subject separation? One of the most striking things about the 50 APO is the crispness with which the subject is in focus and the sharp falloff to OOF areas. I love that look. I've seen some shots on the 50 Summilux that get it but because the plane of focus is so thin, there are fewer that have that remarkable effect compared to the 50 APO. I haven't seen as many images from the 50 Summicron that do that but I'd certainly be willing to think about it, since the Zeiss 50 Planar at f2 has some of that ultra-crisp separation. 

 

In thinking about your 28mm vs. 35mm question,  it may be a matter of personal perception.  I shot with a 28 Summicron from 2003 to 2015.  The Leica 28mm M lenses draw in such a way that the images appear almost three dimensional - to my eye, that is.  Others may not see it, but that is my perception.  The 21mm f/3.4 Super Elmar also has that 3D quality to it - to my eye.  I cannot comment on the 24mm M lenses, as I have never shot with one.  The only 24mm lens I have used was the 24mm f/2.8 Nikkor, which has a static, almost lifeless rendering compared to the Leica M 28mm lenses.  Again, to my eye. 

 

When the M-P 240 Safari set became available, I had been thinking about upgrading from my M240 to an M-P and decided to trade in my M240 and 28mm Summicron toward the Safari set.  My thinking was that I would not miss the 28 'cron since the 35 'cron that comes with the Safari is very similar in angle of view compared to my 28 'cron.  Well, there is more to it than just angle of view, and I do miss my 28 'cron even though I have since added a 28 f/2.8 Elmarit to my kit.  That's not to say that the 35mm Summicron ASPH is a "bad" lens or has a "poor" rendering - far from it.  It's just different.  Others may not see it, but there is a difference - to my eye.

 

Regarding the 50mm Summilux vs. the 50mm Summicron (non-APO version), the two lenses will have a different fingerprint when used wide open.  Most of the non-photographer population would never notice it.  Most photographers wouldn't notice it, either - but there are subtle differences.  Every Leica M 50mm lens will render differently.  The thing to keep in mind when thinking of 50 Summicron vs. 50 Summilux is this:  When shooting wide open with any lens, the closer you are to the subject that you have focused on in your frame, the less depth of field you will have.  if you are shooting wide open seven feet from the subject you have focused on, the Summilux will have less depth of field than the Summicron.  Both lenses will produce an out of focus background, but with two slightly different renderings.  some have said that the current 50mm Summilux ASPH is a must have lens due to its rendering, its speed, its sharpness and contrast.  If finances permit, it is an outstanding choice, one that you cannot go wrong with.  The 50 Summicron is a great all-around 50mm which will get excellent results; it will get slightly different results from the 50 Summilux, though. 

 

In the 50mm Summicron APO, Leica has created a lens that is without equal.  The question is seeing that it sells for over twice the price of the 50 Summilux, is it money well spent?  For a lot of us, probably not.  If spending $4000 USD above the cost of the 50 Summilux is not a problem and you want the ultimate 50mm, the question of whether it is money well spent takes on less urgency. 

 

At 50mm, we have the Summicron for $2200, the Summilux for $3800 and the Summicron APO for $7800.  In my view, the 'cron is an excellent performer and somewhat of a budget priced (for Leica M) lens; if it were an automobile, the 'cron APO would be a hypercar like the Bugatti Veyron.  Given those two ends of the price spectrum, the 50 Summilux ASPH makes an awfully strong case for itself. 

 

As for renting lenses before buying, it might be more cost effective to travel to the nearest Leica shop, rent a couple of lenses for the day, try them and stay the night compared to the cost of renting and insuring them for long distance shipping; just something to consider.

 

This response has gotten to be lengthy but I hope it will be helpful.  Best of luck with your lens purchasing decisions!

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Thanks, that's worth considering. I can swing the extra $300, not a problem.  I will admit to being not sure about the 28mm length...it feels a little "nowhere" to me. When I shot with the 28-70 zoom on a dSLR, the shots at 28mm always felt either a little cramped for wide-angle (I wanted more room) or not tight enough...when I mention that I had some shots clustered there it was because I think was wanting a wider angle and couldn't get it. Budget aside, what's making you think that the 28 is preferable to a 35? 

 

In terms of the 50 recommendation, do you think the 50 Summicron is noticeably less good than the 50 Summilux in terms of subject separation? One of the most striking things about the 50 APO is the crispness with which the subject is in focus and the sharp falloff to OOF areas. I love that look. I've seen some shots on the 50 Summilux that get it but because the plane of focus is so thin, there are fewer that have that remarkable effect compared to the 50 APO. I haven't seen as many images from the 50 Summicron that do that but I'd certainly be willing to think about it, since the Zeiss 50 Planar at f2 has some of that ultra-crisp separation. 

 

 

You know it is really arguable which is the general purpose lens 35mm or 50mm. I think it really boils down to what kind of shooting you do. If it is more street, documentary, landscapes then probably 35mm. If it includes more portraiture and you like to isolate subjects using aperture as you have said that you do, then it is probably 50mm. 

 

So if 50mm is your general purpose lens vs. 35mm, then 28mm is a better wide angle than 35mm. It gives you more wide angle-ness without introducing the need for an external viewfinder. You're never going to get great subject isolation with a wide angle lens so you embrace the deep depth of field and the expansive field of view. With a 28mm and a 50mm you have context and isolation, landscape and subject.

 

If in your original post, you hadn't been talking a lot about subject isolation and spoken so longingly about the APO-Summicron 50mm then I would probably say that the 35mm Summilux as the first lens. However, I think for a 2 lens system 35mm and 50mm aren't different enough and the vague clues in your original post really doh't sound to me like you are a 35mm shooter. I think that you are going to end up with a 3 lens kit with either a 75mm or a 90mm APO-Summicron. 

 

The 35mm shooters that I know never talk about isolation and look of bokeh. They talk about things differently, they seem to be minimal kit, mount up the 35mm lens and practically never change it.  They say things like, "fill the frame" and when they show their best pictures they are pointing out the corners and all the things going on at different planes in the image. They also never use lights, probably wouldn't bother with medium format. You don't sound like them.

 

With 28mm & 50mm there is a very distinct mode shift. It is a different kind of photography. They are very different and are used in different contexts for different purposes.  It is CLEARLY something else. With 35mm and 50mm I think that you are going to be perpetually confused and changing lenses a lot, not quite sure if you really should be 35mm or 50mm in this particular situation. Should I take my 35mm today or my 50mm today? With 28mm and 50mm I think you'll find more of the pleasure of the M design where you aren't carrying something huge around all the time. You'll be "I'm doing a model today -- that is 50mm" (subject). "I'm doing landscapes today -- that is 28mm" (context) Once you have really gotten the pleasure of the M and its "I'm walking out the door today with this one lens" way of being. You can start filling the gaps with FLs like 35mm. 

 

I believe that the reason why there are so many really good Leica photographers is not because the Leica has some magic, it is because the many subtle elements of using the Leica M conspire to teach and reinforce some elements of photography which lead to photographers becoming good photographers. I'd argue that the "only prime lenses" (no zooms) is part of that. It sort of wires your brain to really master one focal length. If you sounded like a 35mm shooter, I'd say get a 35mm. You sound to me more like a 50mm shooter and since you are talking a two lens kit to start. I think that 50mm and 28mm will be a better combination because they are so different. I think that it will be a better introduction to Leica M photography because of that distinct mode shift between shooting with the 28mm and shooting with the 50mm.

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If I were doing it again and starting from scratch with a two lens kit, I think I would go for a new 50 Lux and the 28 Elmarit. The 50 Lux is a good do-it-all lens that works well for subject isolation and low light shooting. And the 28 Elmarit is compact and provides a wide view that works well for certain situations. It is different enough from the fifty to be worth carrying along, while not being so ultra wide as to limit its usefulness. The slower speed is not too much of a limitation, and the size and weight of it are a huge benefit. If I found a need for telephoto, I might add a 90 down the road for a perfect three-lens kit.

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Greetings.   I would seriously consider the combination of a Summilux 50 and a Summilux 35.  Both are technically superb that will provide you with a very stable platform on which your future acquisition (when more funds are available) can only add to.  My 2 cents.  Enjoy in good health. 

 

PS: By stable lens, I mean a lens with which you do not feel the need, or the desire, to upgrade.

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So if 50mm is your general purpose lens vs. 35mm, then 28mm is a better wide angle than 35mm. It gives you more wide angle-ness without introducing the need for an external viewfinder. You're never going to get great subject isolation with a wide angle lens so you embrace the deep depth of field and the expansive field of view. With a 28mm and a 50mm you have context and isolation, landscape and subject.

 

The 35mm shooters that I know never talk about isolation and look of bokeh. They talk about things differently, they seem to be minimal kit, mount up the 35mm lens and practically never change it.  They say things like, "fill the frame" and when they show their best pictures they are pointing out the corners and all the things going on at different planes in the image. They also never use lights, probably wouldn't bother with medium format. You don't sound like them.

 

With 28mm & 50mm there is a very distinct mode shift. It is a different kind of photography. They are very different and are used in different contexts for different purposes.  It is CLEARLY something else. With 35mm and 50mm I think that you are going to be perpetually confused and changing lenses a lot, not quite sure if you really should be 35mm or 50mm in this particular situation. Should I take my 35mm today or my 50mm today? With 28mm and 50mm I think you'll find more of the pleasure of the M design where you aren't carrying something huge around all the time. You'll be "I'm doing a model today -- that is 50mm" (subject). "I'm doing landscapes today -- that is 28mm" (context) Once you have really gotten the pleasure of the M and its "I'm walking out the door today with this one lens" way of being. You can start filling the gaps with FLs like 35mm. 

 

Pretty sure you hit the nail on the head here, and I am grateful for that. I went for a walk tonight with my iPhone 7 Plus (other than that I'm cameraless while waiting for my M10) and a viewfinder app meant for cinematographers but that shows Leica framelines and lets you capture images with the framelines overlaid for later review. I need to do more like this, but my conclusion so far is that you're right-- 50mm is a must for me (knew that!) but 28mm may be better than 35. There were a number of cases where, after reviewing the images with overlaid framelines, 35mm wouldn't be what attracted me-- I either wanted the tighter crop of the 50 (and maybe even tighter with a 75!) or even wider than the 35mm framelines for a more pronounced wide-angle perspective. 

 

Looks like I can hit my budget with a new 28mm Summicron and a 50mm Summilux. I may rent a 28mm before buying just to confirm, but so far your advice is looking spot-on. Appreciate it very much. 

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I recently picked up the 35/50 Summicrons. I then picked up the 28/2.8. I am happy with all three. I am using them on my M6 and Sony a7Rii until my M10 arrives. Mainly using them on my M6. I wanted a fast lens but I absolutely felt the physical size of the lens should be kept compact. That is why I didn't go for the lux versions of the 35/50.

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Pardon if this all sounds like re-hash, but there is some excellent advice in the thread.  Perhaps I can add one new angle.

 

1. The query on what you like to shoot is appropriate for differentiating focal lengths.  50mm will take 50% of the votes, 35 will take 35% of the votes, and 28 will take the rest.

 

2. There is a trade on analytical sharpness vs. classical look in the vintage of lens you procure.  I see three options, the modern super-corrected APO/ASPH designs courtesy of Mr. Karbe, the decent on center, classical in the corners from the 1970's and 1980's courtesy of Mr. Mandler, and the vintage looks of lenses produced in the 1950's and 1960's.  O.K., there is a 4th style, the uncoated or early coated designs of the 1930's and 1940's, but they are a bit more extreme in trading off analytical sharpness.

 

3.  Speed and Bokeh, that is the last discriminating attribute pair as they are coupled to the flow stop.  My early experiments give me confidence in using the M10 up to 12,800 ISO, and 25,000 may be O.K in a pinch.  You don't need faster than f/2 or f/2.8 for speed purposes.  Bokeh is a different critter, and the extra subject-to-background separation of f/1.4 or f/1.0 is nice to have as a creative tool.  Keep in mind the f/1.0 and f/0.95 lenses are slow to focus as they require a wider arc turn of the lens to change the focal plane.

 

So, what does all that boil down to?  I would look to photographs and photographers you admire and wish to emulate and replicate part of their kit.  A used 50/2 or 35/2 from the 1980's or newer would give you lots of practice.  Upgrade to something pricier or more exotic when you find something that your starter lens doesn't provide.

 

And have fun shooting.

 

Eric

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Pardon if this all sounds like re-hash, but there is some excellent advice in the thread.  Perhaps I can add one new angle.

 

2. There is a trade on analytical sharpness vs. classical look in the vintage of lens you procure.  I see three options, the modern super-corrected APO/ASPH designs courtesy of Mr. Karbe, the decent on center, classical in the corners from the 1970's and 1980's courtesy of Mr. Mandler, and the vintage looks of lenses produced in the 1950's and 1960's.  O.K., there is a 4th style, the uncoated or early coated designs of the 1930's and 1940's, but they are a bit more extreme in trading off analytical sharpness.

 

So, what does all that boil down to?  I would look to photographs and photographers you admire and wish to emulate and replicate part of their kit.  A used 50/2 or 35/2 from the 1980's or newer would give you lots of practice.  Upgrade to something pricier or more exotic when you find something that your starter lens doesn't provide.

 

And have fun shooting.

 

Eric

 

Eric, many thanks for the reply. Appreciate it. In terms of photographs/photographers I admire and aspire to emulate, there's a pretty good representation of 35s and 50s, with some at 21mm and at 75mm. I absolutely adore many of the images made with the 50mm Noctilux (even stopped down a bit, it has a unique signature), but its size, weight, and price aren't especially appealing, at least not for now. I'm not really interested in dealing with an external viewfinder at the moment, so I'm going to leave the wide end out for the time being. 75mm isn't a big priority right now either, but it's a focal length I appreciate and will likely add at some point. 

 

In terms of analytical vs classical, it's a challenge in my decision process. I have seen some great results from the Mandler designed 50 Summicron and appreciate its rendering hugely. At the same time, I'm concerned about focus shift (being a new rangefinder shooter especially) and also really enjoy some of the look of the 50 Summilux ASPH, so I'm torn there. At 35mm I struggle with a similar question. I can see clear differences between the 35 Summilux FLE and the 35 Summicron ASPH, despite both being outstanding lenses. And then there's the fact that some of the Zeiss offerings-- the 50 Planar f2 and the 35 Biogon f2 look to be good performers as well, and the prices are attractive. 

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Start with one lens - my pick would be the 50 Summilux.  It's superb.  I love the look of the Black Chrome version ...

 

Then add a further lens later. The advantage of the 28mm lens is that it fills the viewfinder - it's as wide as you can go without an external viewfinder (which I loathe - had one, lost it).  

 

The 28 & 35 Summicrons have been updated recently, so if either of those appeal, make sure to get the recent versions.  Alternatively, save your pennies and get the 28 Summilux - I find it outshines the 35 Summilux by a large margin.  

 

That combination would be (B&H prices):

 

50 Summilux-M (which is APO, FLE and ASPH)  $4,400.00

 

28 Summilux-M ASPH $6,200.00  :blink:

 

A bit outside your $6,000.00 budget!  Interestingly, on eBay the 50 Summilux is still USD 3,000.00 and there's no saving on the listed 28 Summiluxes.  If 35mm does it for you (it doesn't for me for the reverse of your reasons), the new Summicron could be a good alternative at $3,00.000.  As Ian says, good secondhand could be a better bet ...

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Your totally over thinking this. Choose your first set  50lux/35cron be done with it.....or even a 50cron
There is not a dog on your list or in Leica's stable.
Just shoot a lot ! ....and then shoot some more.
Sooner than you would like you will get a bad case of Leica GAS.
 
Then you will seek out 28mm, 90mm and then the 75 and maybe a 21 too. Only then will you be set.
 I wish it weren't true but you'll see that it is.
 
....Then you will probably rationalize the 10K for a Noctilux, very cool to have the fastest 50 made  :p 
 

Have fun along the way....it sounds like your already hooked.

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