Model 1 Lens "Coating"

[gbealnz]

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I've had this old Model 1 for years, paid too much for it, but am happy I own it. Recently (couple of years ago) I got it refurbished by the local Leica guru, and this ended up being shutter curtains etc.

So, it's all "new" so to speak. Again, at considerable cost however.

 

The lens front element however is not flash. I have put the odd roll through it, but the results are "soft" and some. A close inspection with a loupe shows what I would call coating marks, the coating lost in paces and not in others. I always figured that something this old (5 digit) would be non-coated.

 

Any thoughts on how to "fix" this. MW Cameras in the UK have a lens unit which would be plug and play, but from the description it's not too much better than my current unit.

 

Can it be "polished" to at least make the surface the same all over, or re-coated if it was in fact coated in the first place. Where, and what sort of cost etc?

 

Any help appreciated.

Gary

[earleygallery]

The lens (assuming it's the same age as the camera) would not have been coated. Some people had their lenses coated later on and some lenses will develop a natural coating or tarnish over time.

 

If the front element has bad cleaning marks it will result in a soft focus look. It could also be internal haze - did you have the lens serviced/cleaned with the camera? You might also want to try a lens hood which might improve matters. 

 

Assuming that the camera has a standard mount rather than matched lenses, any 5cm LTM will work - just look for a good clean example, they are about. Best is the last model, the Red Scale, if you're not worried about the lens matching in age to the camera. 

Edited February 22, 2017 by earleygallery

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[gbealnz]

Thank you James. It's a fixed lens, the "Hockey Stick" style, Model 1a. So finding a simple screw in solution isn't quite so simple.

 

I suspected non-coated, but as you say someone may have had it coated. I'll have another look internally, but most of the "issue" is on the front of the exposed element.

Gary

[spydrxx]

Certainly not in your back yard, but contact http://www.focalpointlens.com/

[gbealnz]

Thank you Spydr, food for thought. Sending it out is likely the only option I have, so I will contact them.

Gary

[Doc Henry]

Gary , one question is : what it influences your picture ?
especially not "coated" yourself , it's for the specialist

Henry

[willeica]

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I have a number of 1 Model As, but they are largely just collector's items representing different variants (there were 10 variants of the Elmar model). Some years ago I tried a few rolls of film in one of them and I got pictures which were soft all over. The lens on that one was from a different variant to the body on which it was mounted. I sent it away to be matched (using the small inspection hole at the back and a ground glass screen and then putting shims behind the lens mount). When I received it back I ran another roll of film through it and all of the images were sharp. 

 

If the lens on Gary's camera is cloudy there may be very little that can be done at this stage. I presume that whoever did the refurbishment checked the lens matching. If a new lens were to be put on the camera, the matching exercise would have to be repeated.

 

William

[Doc Henry]

For Gary after some research 

Henry

http://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/39761-why-lens-haze/

http://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/248080-early-coating-of-leitz-lenses/

http://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/11406-prewar-lenses-sent-for-coating/

 

[wlaidlaw]

I have a pre-war black paint Elmar that my father had coated post war, however he also used it as an enlarging lens for a long time and you can see bubbles in the balsam, so it is difficult to judge how much the coating does or does not improve the performance. He also had his pre-war Summar coated in around 1948 but it was a very soft coating and deteriorated badly. I had it recoated for him in the 1960's, where Wallace Heaton not only coated the external surfaces of the front and rear elements but also any free air surfaces inside the lens. My father thought the performance of the lens was greatly improved to the extent that he felt that a hood was not obligatory as it had been prior to the re-coating. It will be interesting comparing the performance of the coated Anastigmat in my O Series replica with the uncoated nickel Elmar and uncoated Hektor on my models 1[C] and III, both of which are in very good condition (the Hektor has just been cleaned and polished by Cameraworks-UK). 

 

Wilson

[willeica]

I have a pre-war black paint Elmar that my father had coated post war, however he also used it as an enlarging lens for a long time and you can see bubbles in the balsam, so it is difficult to judge how much the coating does or does not improve the performance. He also had his pre-war Summar coated in around 1948 but it was a very soft coating and deteriorated badly. I had it recoated for him in the 1960's, where Wallace Heaton not only coated the external surfaces of the front and rear elements but also any free air surfaces inside the lens. My father thought the performance of the lens was greatly improved to the extent that he felt that a hood was not obligatory as it had been prior to the re-coating. It will be interesting comparing the performance of the coated Anastigmat in my O Series replica with the uncoated nickel Elmar and uncoated Hektor on my models 1[C] and III, both of which are in very good condition (the Hektor has just been cleaned and polished by Cameraworks-UK). 

 

Wilson

 

Is the pre-war black paint Elmar a 50mm/5cm? As far as I am aware, only nickel or chrome versions of that lens were made pre-war. Even post-war, the only black paint versions of that lens that I have seen are rare and very expensive variants such as those supplied to the Swedish Military. There were, of course, pre-war black lacquer Elmars (with nickel or chrome fittings) made in other denominations such as 9cm or 13.5cm. I am guessing, however, that yours is 50mm/5cm because of its use with an enlarger.

 

I would love to see a photo of the lens.

 

William

[wlaidlaw]

William, 

 

I would love to see the lens as well. I last saw it over 15 years ago and have not used it since picking it up from my parents' house in 1971, so I am guessing it must be in one of the 4 attics in our UK house (it is an old farmhouse, that has been added onto frequently for the last 180 years). I just hope that my wife has not thrown it out, in one her "we must clear out a lot of this junk" moods, which usually take place when I am down in France and not there to protest. I have a couple of trunks full of Leica and other maker's camera/lens/accessory boxes in the attic, which much to my wife's annoyance are locked and marked "do not throw out". The problem is I am now too arthritic to climb up the ladder and heave myself through the trapdoor into two of the attics in the UK and am dependant on getting my children on a visit, to get stuff down for me. From memory, the lens almost looks anodised black, with a very thin metallic looking black coating. It is marked 5cm not 50mm and from memory, has no serial number but I could be wrong on the latter. I think it was one of the bits of Leica equipment that my father bought from a Polish refugee, who was one of those for whom he had arranged emergency housing in 1939/40. 

 

William

[M9reno]

I had a problem with flare in my 0-series replica a while back.  See:

 

http://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/250711-anastigmat-0-series-replica-funbut-flare/

 

It was fixed by Malcolm Taylor by adding baffling inside the lens, as well as painting the inside tubus matt-black.  Either of these strategies may help considerably to improve the performance of Gary's lens, as well.

[wlaidlaw]

I had a problem with flare in my 0-series replica a while back.  See:

 

http://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/250711-anastigmat-0-series-replica-funbut-flare/

 

It was fixed by Malcolm Taylor by adding baffling inside the lens, as well as painting the inside tubus matt-black.  Either of these strategies may help considerably to improve the performance of Gary's lens, as well.

 

I will see how I get on with the FISON hood I have picked up for very little, as the chrome on the front section is a bit tatty. I will cut the chrome back and paint it black with an air brush. If I still get flare, I will contact Malcolm to get the same done as you had on yours. I suspect mine like yours has sat totally unused for the last 17 years and diaphragm lubricant may well have evaporated and condensed on the element surfaces. 

 

Wilson

[dkCambridgeshire]

I've had this old Model 1 for years, paid too much for it, but am happy I own it. Recently (couple of years ago) I got it refurbished by the local Leica guru, and this ended up being shutter curtains etc.

So, it's all "new" so to speak. Again, at considerable cost however.

 

The lens front element however is not flash. I have put the odd roll through it, but the results are "soft" and some. A close inspection with a loupe shows what I would call coating marks, the coating lost in paces and not in others. I always figured that something this old (5 digit) would be non-coated.

 

Any thoughts on how to "fix" this. MW Cameras in the UK have a lens unit which would be plug and play, but from the description it's not too much better than my current unit.

 

Can it be "polished" to at least make the surface the same all over, or re-coated if it was in fact coated in the first place. Where, and what sort of cost etc?

 

Any help appreciated.

Gary

 

Gary, The lens can be separated from the body by removing the lens flange three retaining screws (one of which is the focus stop) … the lens elements can then be examined via a lamp but some lamps are more revealing than others … a low wattage lamp with a filament will likely reveal more. You may find that the rear element needs cleaning in which case this could be contributing to the 'marks'. I've just removed my IA lens and was surprised by the hazy / spotty rear element but after cleaning with an Iso Propyl alcohol swab, followed by a wipe with Leica micro fibre lens cloth, it is clear. 

 

GRES in UK offer a lens polishing service http://www.gres.co.uk/service.htm  … but I've not used them myself. Other repairers may offer lens polishing but might not do it themselves. In 2005 Ffordes Photographic arranged repolishing my 1960 50/2.8 Elmar lens front element - they sent it to their own optical repairer  You might consider contacting Ffordes to enquire if they can arrange repolishing your lens and at what cost. My Leica IA is a low serial number 79XX made in 1928; if it needed polishing I would not specify coating … because coating would compromise its originality and value. 

 

Best wishes

 

dunk 

Edited February 28, 2017 by dkCambridgeshire

[gbealnz]

Gary, The lens can be separated from the body by removing the lens flange three retaining screws (one of which is the focus stop) … the lens elements can then be examined via a lamp but some lamps are more revealing than others … a low wattage lamp with a filament will likely reveal more. You may find that the rear element needs cleaning in which case this could be contributing to the 'marks'. I've just removed my IA lens and was surprised by the hazy / spotty rear element but after cleaning with an Iso Propyl alcohol swab, followed by a wipe with Leica micro fibre lens cloth, it is clear. 

 

GRES in UK offer a lens polishing service http://www.gres.co.uk/service.htm  … but I've not used them myself. Other repairers may offer lens polishing but might not do it themselves. In 2005 Ffordes Photographic arranged repolishing my 1960 50/2.8 Elmar lens front element - they sent it to their own optical repairer  You might consider contacting Ffordes to enquire if they can arrange repolishing your lens and at what cost. My Leica IA is a low serial number 79XX made in 1928; if it needed polishing I would not specify coating … because coating would compromise its originality and value. 

 

Best wishes

 

dunk 

Thank you Dunk, I'll write to both of them.

I guess in the end it will come down to cost, but right now I'm up the creek financially with it, so spending a bit more to make it perfect seems the only logical way forward.

Plus, I really like using it, and would like to use it some more.

Gary

[wlaidlaw]

I have had very good experience recently with Alan Starkie of Cameraworks-uk.com. He repolished, de-dusted and cleaned the Hektor 5cm/f2.5 on my Model III, while he was doing a total overhaul of the camera. He made a very good job of the lens and it looks like new. I re-tested it on my SL and the flare was considerably reduced. He is about to receive the three Ektars from my Graflex Combat Graphic kit to do the same and lubricate the helicoids, which have become extremely stiff plus do a CLA on the camera. 

 

Wilson

Edited February 28, 2017 by wlaidlaw