eyeheartny Posted February 20, 2017 Share #1 Posted February 20, 2017 Advertisement (gone after registration) I'm about to place a preorder for an M10. This will be my first Leica after years of SLR shooting. There are sites in Europe that offer some amazing pricing and that's where I'll get the M10 body from. But the question for me is about lens ordering. I've been reading obsessively since the M10 was announced and am going to start my Leica journey with a 50mm Summilux. That said, I've seen numerous reviews that describe people having to go through multiple copies of Leica lenses before finding one that satisfies them. How common are these bad copies in reality? Is there a risk in not being able to easily return a lens if I order from a Euro site (I'm in the USA)? The savings is significant enough (approximately 25% off US retail) that it's hard for me to not consider this option. But I also want the lens to be as perfect as possible. Thoughts, advice, etc? Thanks!! Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted February 20, 2017 Posted February 20, 2017 Hi eyeheartny, Take a look here How likely is a "bad copy" of 50 Lux? Thinking of ordering from EU site but concerned.. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
jim0266 Posted February 20, 2017 Share #2 Posted February 20, 2017 (edited) Took me 4 copies before I found a 50 Lux ASPH that was a keeper. One was new and the other and final keeper were used. Edited February 20, 2017 by jim0266 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaelwj Posted February 20, 2017 Share #3 Posted February 20, 2017 (edited) It's known as a lens that has fine tolerances. You have a few options; 1) buy the lens and body from the same place and ask them to check them together. 2) but from somewhere with a good return policy; 25% on a 50 lux is a lot of shipping! 3) buy a used lens that's known to be good. All options have positives and negatives... and none are a sure bet. I'd go with #2 from a reputable seller. Edited February 20, 2017 by michaelwj Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leicauser7 Posted February 20, 2017 Share #4 Posted February 20, 2017 I'm no expert -- my understanding however is that with any current lens there would be only a very small chance (say less than 1%) of receiving a "bad" lens, that is, one that can't be made or work perfectly with your rangefinder through calibration. If you are ordering an m10, since I haven't seen a single case reported of an m10 deliverer that needed realignment of the rangefinder, you can safely assume your camera will be perfectly calibrated. If you accept this, then the risk is that the lens is not calibrated to the same tolerance. It seems there is a real chance of that, though it also seems like Leica has really tightened up their lens calibration tolerances since the introduction of digital M's. If you do receive your lens and it it doesn't focus perfectly with your camera -- again, assuming the problem is the lens and not the camera -- you have 3 options. First, send it back and ask for a new one. If you are dealing with a European seller, while you likely have the right to do this, j would say this would be the least preferred option as it would entail additional cost (shipping) and possible duplication of 2,3% duty (i.e., paying on the first lens and then again when the replacement arrives). Second, send it in to Leica USA for adjustment or replacement. This would probably be your best option bc it would be free -- your warranty would be valid and honored in the US by Leica. I have no idea though how quickly Leica would address the problem, i.e., would you have to get in line behind all of the other lens CLA's waiting attention? I would hope not. Third, you could send it to someone like DAG for recalibration. Would cost probably $150 and turnaround should be quick. I'll be as interested as you from those more experienced to see if I've gotten my facts straight here. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dunhoy Posted February 20, 2017 Share #5 Posted February 20, 2017 If you are within striking distance of London go see RedDot Cameras and get a used one from them - save a bunch of money and have peace of mind! 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wattsy Posted February 20, 2017 Share #6 Posted February 20, 2017 (edited) For what it's worth, the 50 Summilux is a lens that I've previously had focussing problems with even after Leica have had the lens back for servicing. My first copy of this lens, which I bought in 2005 (when Leica only sold film bodies), backfocussed quite noticeably when I used it on my M8. Leica serviced the lens and improved matters but it continued to backfocus in the close range. I bought another new copy around 5 years ago and found this too backfocussed in the close range (confirmed by customer care in London). Leica in Solms (as they were then) had a go at fixing it but it seemed to be the same when the lens came back so I gave up on the Summilux at that point. Fast forward to 2015 and I tried out the special edition black chrome version of the Summilux ASPH and it was perfect. (As an aside, that version also had a much smoother focussing action than the other 50 Summiluxes I previously had.) I didn't buy the lens in the end because I no longer really use the 50mm focal enough to justify the expense but it at least confirmed to me that the lens isn't intrinsically limited. The 50 Summilux ASPH is a pretty special lens and I sometimes think of buying another to round out my system but I don't think I'd buy one without trying it first. All that said, I think Leica have tightened up considerably in recent years with lens and camera calibration (I think Mr Maggoo must have retired) and it is quite possible that you will get a good one. Edited February 20, 2017 by wattsy Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted February 20, 2017 Share #7 Posted February 20, 2017 Advertisement (gone after registration) I would not rely on Leica USA (or UK or FR, etc.) to fix any lens for free if it has been acquired on the grey market as this could be the case if the price you've got is that amazing. I would ask your dealer for a scan of the Leica Guarantee Card and the Leica Test Certificate in the first place in order to make sure that the lens will be fixed by Wetzlar for free. Both Leica Guarantee Card and Leica Test Certificate should have a sticker displaying the code number of the lens, its serial number and a bar code this way: Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/269589-how-likely-is-a-bad-copy-of-50-lux-thinking-of-ordering-from-eu-site-but-concerned/?do=findComment&comment=3217345'>More sharing options...
eyeheartny Posted February 20, 2017 Author Share #8 Posted February 20, 2017 If you are within striking distance of London go see RedDot Cameras and get a used one from them - save a bunch of money and have peace of mind! Unfortunately I'm in California, so a London jaunt, while quite appealing, isn't really an option since the savings would be wiped out by the flight! Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeheartny Posted February 20, 2017 Author Share #9 Posted February 20, 2017 I would not rely on Leica USA (or UK or FR, etc.) to fix any lens for free if it has been acquired on the grey market as this could be the case if the price you've got is that amazing. Hmm. The site is LeicaShop.com, which seems rather reliable. Are they considered true grey market or just an Euro supplier? Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeheartny Posted February 20, 2017 Author Share #10 Posted February 20, 2017 For what it's worth, the 50 Summilux is a lens that I've previously had focussing problems with even after Leica have had the lens back for servicing. ... The 50 Summilux ASPH is a pretty special lens and I sometimes think of buying another to round out my system but I don't think I'd buy one without trying it first. All that said, I think Leica have tightened up considerably in recent years with lens and camera calibration (I think Mr Maggoo must have retired) and it is quite possible that you will get a good one. Thanks for this thoughtful and specific reply! It's interesting that you've had such a varied experience with this lens. It certainly fits with some of the reports I've read. I'm a little disheartened at the thought of needing to send back a product to the EU At considerable time/expense if the copy isn't perfect. If you're in the US, do you just pay full retail to have return options or do you go through other avenues to get a better deal? Just curious. Even though I can afford the lens at full retail, I always (to a fault sometimes) like to look for a deal. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
james.liam Posted February 20, 2017 Share #11 Posted February 20, 2017 (edited) If your intent is to reduce the costs of a new lens and have a full factory warranty I'd suggest seeking out a QM2 version of the item. These are sold as 'used' by select authorized dealers They typically have some unspecified (and hard to find) cosmetic defect to the finish but have passed inspections as to mechanical function. This option would provide you a margin of comfort that buying second-hand from an unknown vendor will not. Edited February 20, 2017 by james.liam 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wattsy Posted February 20, 2017 Share #12 Posted February 20, 2017 (edited) Hmm. The site is LeicaShop.com, which seems rather reliable. Are they considered true grey market or just an Euro supplier? Definitely not grey. About as authorised as you can get short of one of Leica's own shops. I think Leica Camera AG either has or had a financial relationship with the business (Westlicht) behind leicashop.com. Edited February 20, 2017 by wattsy 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted February 20, 2017 Share #13 Posted February 20, 2017 Hmm. The site is LeicaShop.com, which seems rather reliable. Are they considered true grey market or just an Euro supplier? I've been dealing with them a couple of times already with no problem at all. Just ask for a scan of the guarantee card and check that the dealer's name is blank and not a unknown name printed in Chinese or otherwise. Happened to me once in Vienna, but not with Leica Shop i must say. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeheartny Posted February 20, 2017 Author Share #14 Posted February 20, 2017 This option would provide you a margin of comfort that buying second-hand from an unknown vendor will not. If I wasn't clear I apologize--I'm looking at new items but sold through European dealers to take advantage of the VAT discount plus the lower pricing. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeheartny Posted February 20, 2017 Author Share #15 Posted February 20, 2017 Definitely not grey. About as authorised as you can get short of one of Leica's own shops. I think Leica Camera AG either has or had a financial relationship with the business (Westlicht) behind leicashop.com. Good to know! The only problem is that I'm number 86 on their waitlist for an M10. I may hunt around for a shorter list. Any idea who would have similar EU pricing but with a shorter wait? Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leicauser7 Posted February 20, 2017 Share #16 Posted February 20, 2017 Remember that if you purchase something from an authorized Leica dealer (i.e., not gray) anywhere in the world, Leica USA will honor the warranty exactly the same as if the item were purchased from an authorized us retailer. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeheartny Posted February 20, 2017 Author Share #17 Posted February 20, 2017 Remember that if you purchase something from an authorized Leica dealer (i.e., not gray) anywhere in the world, Leica USA will honor the warranty exactly the same as if the item were purchased from an authorized us retailer. Thanks. My concern isn't about warranty repair but about the hassle/expense of either sending something back as a return or the long wait to have something repaired or calibrated. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pechelman Posted February 20, 2017 Share #18 Posted February 20, 2017 (edited) could someone summarize or point me to a previous thread that discusses the sample variability issues present on this lens? Is just just a lack of perceived sharpness, bad calibration, focus shift, or something else? I.e. How does one know they have a keeper or a lemon? Guess I've been either living under a rock in that I'm ignorantly happy with the performance of my lens or I just got lucky my first time around. Edited February 20, 2017 by pechelman 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted February 20, 2017 Share #19 Posted February 20, 2017 It is not really sample variation. The "problem" with this lens is that the floating element group has to work to incredibly small tolerances mechanically. This can result in focus issues at short distances. What percentage is affected is not known, but it can happen. Fortunately Leica can solve the defect. On the upside: we do not hear many complaints in the forum lately, if any. Nothing like, say, five to ten years ago, so it would seem that the QC and production issues have been addressed. I would not rely on Leica USA (or UK or FR, etc.) to fix any lens for free if it has been acquired on the grey market as this could be the case if the price you've got is that amazing. I would ask your dealer for a scan of the Leica Guarantee Card and the Leica Test Certificate in the first place in order to make sure that the lens will be fixed by Wetzlar for free. Both Leica Guarantee Card and Leica Test Certificate should have a sticker displaying the code number of the lens, its serial number and a bar code this way: stick.jpg As long as the product is made by Leica, the factory will honour the guaranty worldwide, even if the local importer may not. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted February 20, 2017 Share #20 Posted February 20, 2017 My only problem was stiff focusing with this lens but it took Leica several months to fix it. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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