Returning to Leica, M10 or MP240 advice please

[Eoin]

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Hi all,

 

Its been a long time since I was posting on this forum and it's good to see some familiar names still here and very active.

I have for a long time enjoyed the simplicity and essence in rangefinder photography but the problems with the M8 at that time

prompted me to sell off that equipment & lenses and look elsewhere for satisfaction.

 

I suppose and it will not be surprising to many, that simplicity and essence was not found in the other systems I've tried.

Yes, they were all capable of excellent image quality but the self satisfaction and pure enjoyment seems missing for me.

I have always kept a distant eye on the progression of the digital M but to be brutally honest, the buy in pricing kept me away.

 

Ultimately that frustration and the release of the M 10 prompted me to decide a move to Leica was back on the cards.

I have recently purchased 2 of my 3 chosen focal lengths 21mm, 35mm & 75mm.

 

Presently, I find myself with a bit of a dilemma on which is the correct direction to go in relation to M digital bodies.

 

M8/M8.2 is out due to past experience.

M9 is out due to age at this point.

M Monocrome holds no interest, I would rather subtract colour than never be able to add it back.

M240 seems like a good choice, but I would rather the MP 240 variant for the later processor/memory & sensor technology.

M262 seems loosing the LCD is a step too far for my needs.

M10 seems the obvious choice, but initial back orders and supply makes this reality a number of months off.

 

So I find my self considering the best direction would be a lightly used MP 240 with (hopefully) some warranty remaining.

I think that would tide me over for a number of years, then perhaps at the MP 10 release I could re-evaluate and decide if an upgrade is warranted.

I do wear glasses, eye relief is important to me, but I'm sure there is a big difference between the M8 & MP240 finders. MP240 to M10 less so.

 

So my question basically,

is choosing a 2nd hand MP 240 even with no warranty a risky proposition, are they reliable?.

Would you only choose a 2nd hand MP 240 if it had warranty?.

Should I wait my time, add €2000 to the budget and strive for a new M10 with full warranty?.

 

As you can see, warranty is of primary concern given my history with the M8 and what I've read on the M9/M240.

I would be reluctant to spend €7000 on a new MP240 when later technology and improvements are available in the M10 for €500 less.

The video function in the MP240 holds little or no attraction for my needs.

 

I know there are a few current Leica deals out there on M's & a lens bundled which can save 

 

I have read many of the threads on here, but they are mainly why people are or are not upgrading to the M10 from a previous M.

But the perspective of starting from not having a M and which direction to go seems lacking, not surprising really given the forum we're on.

So any advice you can give to sooth my internal musings would be appreciated.

 

Thanks

 

 

 

 

[Mr. Bill]

You might want to reconsider the M-262 as opposed to the M262M-D. The latter one is the one you are thinking about, without the LED screen, while the plain-Jane M-262 has a screen... and is about $2000 less expensive. Like the M10, the regular M-262 also has no video, a much larger capacity battery, also has a 24Mpix sensor, and is available now. There are even some almost-new ones available used.

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[Echo63]

You may want to reconsider the M10 - there is a big difference in the viewfinder, the hole you look through in the back of the camera is much bigger, and those i have spoken to who wear glasses have said they can shoot through their glasses, instead of needing to add a diopter and shoot around them.

 

If you can, i would reccomend visiting your local leica dealer and trying both the M240 and M10.

 

(Fwiw, i will be keeping my M240 for a while yet, it is still an amazing camera, and i cannot justify the upgrade, if i were still shooting full time i would have already placed my order)

[sblutter]

My advise is based on personal experience:

 

I bought a lightly used 240 when upgrading from M9 about 3 yrs into its life cycle.  I saved about $3000 from new - which you could use to build your lens array.

 

I loved the M9 - but so much of my work depends on really critical focus.  Having LV and a hugely improved screen have made that problem totally go away in an M body for the 1st time. 

 

People tend to baby these cameras - I've been buying used M bodies for 40+ yrs.  Have them CLA'd once in a while - never had an actual problem.

 

As for the 10 - after examining a lot of DNG's - I don't see enough IQ improvement in the sort of scenes I shoot to warrant it, will sit out this round

 

And PS:  I've had great noiseless results in low light using Photoshop tricks.  6400 is not a problem at all even in large prints.

 

BTW:  Used lenses are wonderful - don't have to be Leica at all - tho the 50mm Summi ver 3 is just sensational - my copy was made in 1987.

 

You will love the 240, promise!

[ECohen]

Tough call

I have a 240MP and its a great camera no need for the M10 so save your money.

I use diopters and have a little trouble seeing the frame lines on 28mm....but it doesn't really bother me .
 

If you care about the 2 or 3K get a gently used 240MP lots of great deals more the longer you wait.

Aren't there current Leica deals deals for a body and a lens save 1500 to 2K?
 

However:
If the warranty would make you feel better and you don't care about the money...get the M10.
 

If it were me I'd save the money and get a 240MP from a reputable dealer.

I know this answer doesn't help you at all.....sorry

 

Also:

Does anyone know for sure???  I think I have heard that the battery on the 240 lasts a bit  longer?

Edited February 18, 2017 by ECohen

[otto.f]

'Initial backorders" of the M10: are you sure? The M10 has been delivered sooner as any foregoing digital M after introduction. If you go for a silver one, you wil probably have one in a week or two. At least that's my experience. Jumping from M8 to M10 as in your case, is the best price/quality-improvement ratio there is over 10 years.

And the M262( which has indeed a version with screen) has the nicest, most silent shuttersound

Edited February 18, 2017 by otto.f

[Eoin]

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You might want to reconsider the M-262 as opposed to the M262M-D. ....

Thank you, I was not aware of that. I should investigate further.

 

If you can, i would reccomend visiting your local leica dealer and trying both the M240 and M10.

 

(Fwiw, i will be keeping my M240 for a while yet, it is still an amazing camera, and i cannot justify the upgrade, if i were still shooting full time i would have already placed my order)

Unfortunately there are no Leica stores here, the one and only Leica dealer is not showing any M10s in stock to make the comparison.

Interesting that you can't justify the upgrade at the moment.

 

You will love the 240, promise!

Might hold you to that! 

 

 

Tough call

I have a 240MP and its a great camera no need for the M10 so save your money.

I use diopters and have a little trouble seeing the frame lines on 28mm....but it doesn't really bother me .

 

If you care about the 2 or 3K get a gently used 240MP lots of great deals more the longer you wait.

Aren't there current Leica deals deals for a body and a lens save 1500 to 2K?

 

However:

If the warranty would make you feel better and you don't care about the money...get the M10.

 

If it were me I'd save the money and get a 240MP from a reputable dealer.

I know this answer doesn't help you at all.....sorry

 

Also:

Does anyone know for sure???  I think I have heard that the battery on the 240 lasts a bit  longer?

 

Starting from nothing, a 3 lens combination of 21, 35, 75 plus the body, of course the €3k is a factor. I may opt to add the 3rd lens later if I had the immediate choice of a M10.

However the current Leica deals are on new M240 & M262 and lens which means buying both new, unfortunately the 75mm Summicron is not part of that offer.

I may well take your advice and seek out a used M240P with a dealer warranty.

 

'Initial backorders" of the M10: are you sure? The M10 has been delivered sooner as any foregoing digital M after introduction. If you go for a silver one, you wil probably have one in a week or two. At least that's my experience. Jumping from M8 to M10 as in your case, is the best price/quality-improvement ratio there is over 10 years.

And the M262( which has indeed a version with screen) has the nicest, most silent shuttersound

 

Yes it certainly looks like there were far more M10s than previous initial releases, but reading the threads here on availability, lists are double digits and quotes of May/June.

The shutter sound never bothered me in the slightest. 

 

 

Musing it further in my mind, I think any M I buy must have some warranty, the 2 year manufacturers warranty from new gives further peace of mind. But I notice few of you commented on it. Is it just my fear based on my experience of the M8 10 years ago, or have you all enjoyed full warranty on your M9 & M240 which are now expired. You may have plans to upgrade to the M10 / M10P and it's not such a big issue because it will be new?.

 

Heart and head are starting to converge on an M10, pocket is still saying there is better value out there in a M240P. No decision I ever made in photography was financially sound  . It's one of the few life long pleasures I have enjoyed.

 

Thank you all for your thoughts.

[Stef63]

Having both the M240 and M10 I would like to recommend you to go for the new camera. It is better in every aspect. Not by much, but if you sum it up it's the better choice. Unless of course you have an urgent need to shoot video on a platform that was not made for video shooting and where video was added as a feature because the manufacturer loved in those days to show off they could add video to a rangefinder camera. An iPhone can shoot video better than an M240. But if you want to go shoot video with a Noctilux for whatever reason, there is besides a Leice SL only one camera that can do the same : an M240. In that case the M240 is your best choice.

 

So if video is not your priority, go for the M10 and don't look back. It has better ISO, a better OVF, a proper clip on EVF, better balanced body in size and weight, a very convenient ISO dial, better user interface etc. Better in all aspects than the M240, but not by much.

 

It's up to you :-)

[ECohen]

For fear of jinxing my luck.

In 40 years I have never had a camera break in warranty. I have sent them back for adjustments and cleanings but that's it. None of my manual lenses have ever been repaired....ever. I have a Nikon 24~70/ 2.8 that after 10 years or maybe longer of heavy use needed a $500. rebuild, the auto focus motor went out.
 

IMHO the worst thing that may be of concern is that your gently used 240 MP wont focus properly with your lenses. And that you would know with in the warranty period of a reputable used Leica Dealer.
 

Maybe its worth a road trip to your nearest Leica store ...with you lenses in hand?

 

I'll bet with the delivery of M10 in a few months there will be lots of M240s and MP240 with very low shutter actuation's.

I'm rough on my other cameras but not on my Leicas.

 

That said I would buy used....... but I do like the feel of a new car and unboxing a new camera.
 

Edited February 18, 2017 by ECohen

[a.noctilux]

Eoin,

 

Not easy, too many things to consider.

I understand that since your M8 trouble you want warranty for your futur M.

So in this case, only new M then.

 

- if I had to begin my kit from zero, I may consider M (typ 262) kit with Summarit-M 35mm + 75mm like this link:

http://www.reddotcameras.co.uk/m-bodies/10436-entry-set-leica-m262-35-75mm-f24sf40-flashm-system-bag.html

in France the kit is 7,600 Euros

- or if I need in the beginning only one lens, I would buy M10 with one lens (another question which one ?)

 

Arnaud

[ramarren]

Eoin, 

 

I think it's only in the Leica community that I see this kind of soul searching about which is the "best" choice between the current model and the ones that preceded it. Perhaps because Leica equipment costs a bit ...? 

 

By and large, my mental history of the digital Ms goes like this: 

 

• The M8 was a first product after years of basically saying that it couldn't be done at all. Of course it had some problems, and an update solved a good number of them, but it wasn't the right format yet. 
• The M9 got the format right, fixed a lot of problems. But it left a lot on the table still, and the sensor corrosion issue that came up afterwards was certainly unforeseen by both Leica and the sensor manufacturer. The MM9 opened a new niche up. 
• The M typ 240 fixed just about all the problems the M9 had left on the table and added features. Not all users were that happy with all the additions; the M typ 262 answered their desire for a simpler and (slightly) less expensive model. Both the typ 240 and 262 have been pretty solid, the 240 since the second firmware update and the 262 since release. The MM246 extends the typ 240 capabilities into the MM niche. 
• The M-D typ 262 took the notions in the M Edition 60 special edition into a standard production model on the M typ 262 base. This is my favorite M of all. 
• The M10 responds to the desires of users for a slimmer body, carries an improved optical viewfinder, matches the SL sensor performance (and goes slightly beyond), and uprated the internal speed/responsiveness. 
• Since the second fw update to the 240, while perhaps not bulletproof, all of these Ms have been quite reliable enough for anything. Of course the M10 is still in the initial firmware sorting out that only happens after release, but they'll nail it soon. 
• Since the M typ 240, they are all more the same than different. 

 

My personal history using these cameras ...

 

I bought in with the M9 in 2012, purchased as a demo through Tamarkin.com at a discount with a 1 year warranty. It worked flawlessly, to the limit of its capabilities warts and all, until January 2015 when the sensor corrosion issue surfaced. Leica offered me the trade-in and upgrade to the M-P typ 240, which I took as the best deal running. The M-P has operated flawlessly since I got it, all the early firmware stuff already past history. I'd put an order in on the MM246 but it took so long to arrive I gave up, cancelled the order, and put my money in on the SL. The SL proved so excellent I almost stopped using the M entirely, was using it exclusively with the Summilux 35 v2, and then the M Edition 60 came out. That was exactly the M digital concept I wanted, but it was too expensive to dally with for me. "If they make a standard production version of that, I'll buy it." They did; I did in July 2016. This is my all time favorite M now, used with Summilux 35, Summitar 75, and occasionally a 50 or the WATE. It just works for me, perfectly. 

 

I still have the M-P, it is still perfect and almost new, and I've hardly used it at all since November 2015. What I don't shoot with the M-D + 35/75/50, I shoot with the SL. I went to see the M10. It is very nice, the viewfinder in particular is a big deal to me, but the M-D is still my camera. And will be for a while yet at least. 

 

I've been planning to sell the M-P and get a second M-D while I can still get one new. If I were you, and rational, I'd stop over-thinking the choices and just buy the M10 if I wanted new and a warranty, or I'd buy a used M-P 240 or M 262 to save some money. If you'd like, I'll work a deal with you and sell you my M-P ... just PM me if you want to do that. Any of them are wonderful cameras and, as said, they're much more the same than different. 

Edited February 19, 2017 by ramarren

[otto.f]

 

"Musing it further in my mind, I think any M I buy must have some warranty, the 2 year manufacturers warranty from new gives further peace of mind. But I notice few of you commented on it. Is it just my fear based on my experience of the M8 10 years ago, or have you all enjoyed full warranty on your M9 & M240 which are now expired. You may have plans to upgrade to the M10 / M10P and it's not such a big issue because it will be new?."

 

I have had several experiences of free repair after warranty period. For instance with my M9, the sensor was replaced because of a scratch of which could not be proven that I hadn't caused it myself. This was a year before the corrosion problem broke out.

[flyalf]

Well, only you can decide. If I was in your position I would buy a SH M240. The M10 is not considered by *me* for one reason. The lack of a timer and C position on "on" switch. Otherwise the M10 is probably a better camera in every way except that Leica has omitted some features.

Best of luck, you will anyway end up with a great camera.

[IkarusJohn]

I'd go for the M10 - it's the camera Leica should have made when it realeased the M(240), in my opinion. More polished, better realisation of the M series gestalt.

[fotomas]

For me it's the M 240 for several reasons:

 

• much better battery life
• Video, don't use it so often, but sometimes it's great to have
• possibility to have USB, tethered shooting and flash synchro
• better handling in some aspects (ISO, level in LiveView etc.)

For the M10 count's the about one f-stop higher ISO, but compared to film even the M 240 is luxury.

Can take pictures in the darkroom red light without a tripod. Enough for me.

[otto.f]

Well, only you can decide. If I was in your position I would buy a SH M240. The M10 is not considered by *me* for one reason. The lack of a timer and C position on "on" switch. Otherwise the M10 is probably a better camera in every way except that Leica has omitted some features.

Best of luck, you will anyway end up with a great camera.

You're right it's not that handy. The lack of the timer within 1 second reach is so-so, but the C position is indeed quite difficult if not impossible to use for single shooting because it's that fast. Luckily I never use Continuous mode, because missing the M10 with so many advantages for one flaw would be a very sad thing. C mode is for sports and hummingbirds. I wouldn't do sports with an M and for the few hummingbirds I see on my trips I can tolerate 2 seconds more to put the C mode on

[Steve Ash]

I vote for the M10. I came from the M8. While I love the new possibilities due to much better high iso performance the main gain is the very much improved handling and speed of the camera. Improved image quality is just a nice add-on in my pov.

 

Steve

 

 

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[tom0511]

I have had them all (except MP) and now have the M10.

 

If money is not the problem and you want the latest and greatest M10 would be the choice. I would search, maybe you can find one somewhere, and if not just wait a couple of weeks.

On the other side price wise the M240 is nearly just as good and can be found for very attractive prices. With all my M8s, M9,M240, M262 and now M10 I never ever had a problem where I would have to send in the camera.

Another option woud be buying one of these M262 (version with display)+lens sets which are offered new also for good prices.

[Eoin]

Having read your considered opinions, it is clear to me that the M240P is very reliable, capable camera. That is a given.

Worryingly, it is the speed of modern technology progression that makes component supply cycles so short and ultimately effect

the long term serviceable life of any electronic device.

 

But having considered this more, I think the better option for my own peace of mind is to buy new and when doing so, to buy the latest generation.

My reasoning is this, with all electronics they have a finite life both in operation and in supply.

Already the M8's LCD is no longer available (manufacture period 2006-2009) 7-8 years later after the last unit rolled of the production floor. 

 

Yes the current Leica deal, Body and Lens saving a further €1800 seems attractive but unfortunately that offer does not include the 75APO which is the last lens I require, so that is a non runner. Buying that lens 2nd hand will almost save as much.

While the financial consideration in this decision is not insignificant the choice of model M240P or M10 offers little difference in terms of pricing and perhaps the M262 would save €1000.

 

Taking the longer view on this, I think the decision to choose a M10 now, may ultimately provide better trade in value than a M240P of the same age, some time in the future.

After all, your comments suggest the M10 is an incremental improvement over the M240, Battery capacity & video capability aside.

 

I wish to thank you all for your comments, it has been a great help.

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Hallo,

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[Stef63]

Good luck with it.... and hopefully waiting for delivery will not be to long.

 

BTW Order an extra battery along with the camera.  Availability of batteries seem even harder than the camera