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LEICA (III c ?) U.S. ARMY PROPERTY


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Good morning, 

I bought a Leica which seems to be a III c and engraved with "U.S. ARMY PROPERTY" on the top of the left back side as you can see on the picture.

I would like to know if anybody have information about this "U.S. ARMY PROPERTY"

The serial number of the camera is  : 332933

The lens is an Elmar 3,5 / 5 cm

 

Thanks to all of you who can give me any information about it

 

Best

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We don't do valuations on this forum. The value of this would be whatever somebody was prepared to pay for it over the normal value for a IIIa. This link here will give you a normal average value for the basic camera model from auction results http://collectiblend.com/Cameras/Leitz/Leica-IIIa-(Mod-G)-chrome.html. You will see other military IIIa models listed on this site, but none for the US Army.  As far as I know there is no official US record of captured cameras. For German Military issue Leicas for WWII there are well defined sources where such cameras can be verified by Serial Number etc.

 

William

Edited by willeica
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The first step is to verify that the engraving is authentic.  I doubt a "captured" camera would get marked or used by the US Army.  The US Army Signal Corps did buy Leica cameras under contract to Leica after WWII.  Some of these cameras were not new production.  I have a grey IIIc, number 390491K, which a reputable seller said is from the US Army Signal Corps lot.  This camera is not marked in any way.  Apparently the serial number lists are tightly held and not generally available to us guys.  Lager or Netopil may have the list.

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I believe the US armed forces bought and used Leicas before WWII as well. The US didn't enter the war until 41, so a 39 model could have been normal commerce.

However, I agree the engraving doesn't sound right, it is worded more like added later to increase value. I'd expect military ID # or department information.

When the armed forces were cut off from Leica purchase during the war they started an effort to produce Leicas in the US, at first from the Leica NY repair tooling, then from other sources. That eventually resulted in the Kardon copy after the war.

Edited by TomB_tx
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...However, I agree the engraving doesn't sound right, it is worded more like added later to increase value. I'd expect military ID # or department information....

Me too tend to agree... some expert on military cameras can surely say if this kind of phrase (US ARMY PROPERTY) is (or not is) typical of Uncle Sam gear.... for the (little) I know, USA military writings are usually more articulated. Edited by luigi bertolotti
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Me too tend to agree... some expert on military cameras can surely say if this kind of phrase (US ARMY PROPERTY) is (or not is) typical of Uncle Sam gear.... for the (little) I know, USA military writings are usually more articulated.

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 These manufacts do exist, but the font, as far as I have seen, in the original ones are very, very different.  See as specimen here:

 

http://collectiblend.com/Lenses/Leitz/135mm-f4.5-Hektor-(SM,-black-chrome)-'US-Army'.html

http://collectiblend.com/Lenses/Leitz/135mm-f4.5-Hektor-(SM,-black-chrome)-'US-Government'.html

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More seriously ;

http://www.westlicht-auction.com/index.php?id=62&L=1

an another ones in 2005 and 2003 but no identication all are from contact after 1945

and the one from the signal corps have a large plaque fixed on

https://www.google.fr/search?q=cameras+from+the+US+army+ww2&biw=1440&bih=780&tbm=isch&source=lnms&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiE_tfWuIjSAhXH7xQKHZ-WAdcQ_AUIBigB#imgrc=gFWRdI9VBuSZkM:

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Page 104 of Lager's Camera Volume shows some examples of US military Post WW II engravings. They are quite varied, but include some of the examples linked above, such as those on Collectiblend. There are none like the example in the first post above, but that is probably not really conclusive. What would be needed to establish the provenance here would be some verified US military record which shows the camera with that serial number as US military property. I have never seen lists of such items, but perhaps some collectors have, particularly those in the US, and can share. 

 

William

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In UK the engraving were more anonymous for the cameras given by civilians to the army

 

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In UK the engraving were more anonymous for the cameras given by civilians to the army

 

Many years ago I chatted to someone I knew who had worked in a camera shop as the war started. Cameras were requisitioned - especially cameras by Leica and Zeiss - but apparently a few were kept back for favoured customers! The same chap spent time 'behind enemy lines' later in the war, with his camera before returning to camera sales afterwards.

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