leica dream Posted February 9, 2017 Share #1 Posted February 9, 2017 Advertisement (gone after registration) I switched to digital in the 1990's after using film since the late 50's with my own darkroom etc giving much fun. Then moved to lab processed transparencies before converting to digital. Now I have a Leica V-Lux (10 years old) and C-Lux (18 months old) and love them both - the versatile and handy C in particular!. Anyway, I miss film, but being in my mid 70's I cannot start a new darkroom, so film would be B/W Lab developed then self scanned or CD. I am struggling with WHY I would want to move. Funds would be limited. Is it just the quality of film images which attracts me? Is it, perhaps, that I miss the super sharp images from a rangefinder camera instead of autofocus? What is the point if I use a lab for film processing because I end up with digital again at my end? Can B/W scanned film images be adjusted with software in the same way as digital originals? If I did go back (or is it forward) to film I would certainly want a rangefinder model so what is around and which best to choose? Are there any recommended reliable sources for used equipment? I fear any Leica would be outside my budget...............unless you people know better? What general purpose lens spec should I choose? And so on.... I am really struggling and would welcome any and all comments and/or suggestions - even if the answer is "Don't do it". Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted February 9, 2017 Posted February 9, 2017 Hi leica dream, Take a look here Return to film - or not. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
pop Posted February 9, 2017 Share #2 Posted February 9, 2017 .... being in my mid 70's I cannot start a new darkroom, so film would be B/W Lab developed .... If you're really serious about taking up film again, I think you should think about this particular item once again. You need just a dark cubicle, tent or even a changing bag for filling the film into the tank. The tank and the chemicals are not hard to find and not very expensive. I presume you still remember how to develop a film, even if all the detailed knowledge is somewhat dated. To depend on a lab could turn out to be counter-productive, unless you can find a very good one. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilentShutter Posted February 9, 2017 Share #3 Posted February 9, 2017 Can B/W scanned film images be adjusted with software in the same way as digital originals? I am not sure what you mean with "digital originals" ? But if you mean you want to use the files you scanned in the same way like a digital caputured one the answer is YES. Even HDR is possible if you scan a picture multiple times in different settings and by the way film can handle overexposure much more easy that pixles. My workflow with film is almost the same as with digital files. After the scan I save as TIF and open them in Adobe CameraRAW ajust sharpness, exosure, contrast if necessary and open in Photoshop to retouche dust etc. - thats all. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
earleygallery Posted February 9, 2017 Share #4 Posted February 9, 2017 Where do you live? Are there places near you that can process film? As above processing silver halide B&W film is easy. I would suggest buying a cheap film camera first to give it a try out, then decide if you want to do this and buy a Leica. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikemgb Posted February 9, 2017 Share #5 Posted February 9, 2017 If you want to try film without committing to much to start, I would suggest you find a Canon QL17. They are a nice, inexpensive rangefinder with a good 40mm fixed lens. A few films through that will tell you whether you want to stay with film, then you can upgrade to a Leica. I would also suggest developing the film yourself, I do mine using a changing bag, a set of cheap measuring jugs and a meat thermometer, that and a developing tank is about all you need for black and white. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
friedeye Posted February 10, 2017 Share #6 Posted February 10, 2017 I agree with Mike, above. Start with something inexpensive and see how you like the results and workflow. Although nothing quite duplicates the shooting experience of a Leica. I think self-developing is certainly part of the fun and will give you superior results --- but I'm lazy and live close to a couple off good labs, so I leave that to them. Having them scan the images makes it awfully expensive and I find that most labs add too much contrast. So... you'll need to buy a good scanner. Plustek's are good but slow. The new Epsons are not as good as the old Epsons (because of their film holders) and much more expensive. I think the weak link in hybrid photography is the scan. But, once you get your photos scanned and into your PP program, you can, as SilentShutter says above, manipulate them well. I actually find dust spot removal very relaxing. Dodging and burning is a snap. What you gain is a unique look that is tough to truly emulate. And an experience that is, in every way, more satisfying. I encourage you to jump in. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikemgb Posted February 10, 2017 Share #7 Posted February 10, 2017 Advertisement (gone after registration) If you need a scanner take a look at the Epson V600 Photo, middle of their range and very affordable. Scan quality is perfectly adequate for converting film to digital. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikemgb Posted February 10, 2017 Share #8 Posted February 10, 2017 I agree with Mike, above. Start with something inexpensive and see how you like the results and workflow. Although nothing quite duplicates the shooting experience of a Leica. It is true nothing is quite the same as a Leica, but the Canon does have a useful similarity, apart from the rangefinder of course, anything you pay for the QL17 can be recouped later, they don't go down in value. Of course, selling them is emotionally difficult, I haven't used mine in a while but I could never let it go. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne Posted February 10, 2017 Share #9 Posted February 10, 2017 (edited) If you want to try film without committing to much to start, I would suggest you find a Canon QL17. They are a nice, inexpensive rangefinder with a good 40mm fixed lens. A few films through that will tell you whether you want to stay with film, then you can upgrade to a Leica. I would also suggest developing the film yourself, I do mine using a changing bag, a set of cheap measuring jugs and a meat thermometer, that and a developing tank is about all you need for black and white. Or an Olympus XA. Rangefinder and about 50% of QL17. Not sure what your budget is. I purchased a Leica IIIC with 50mm Elmar for about $275 a couple years ago. It worked when purchased; still works. Barnack Leicas are addictive though. You should be able to find the same for not much more....maybe less if you are patient. Edited February 10, 2017 by Wayne Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
A miller Posted February 10, 2017 Share #10 Posted February 10, 2017 Hey Leica Dream - What do you aim to do with your images? Warehouse them digitally? Print them and hang them? Make family albums? Create exhibit-able fine art prints? Commercialize? This is the start of the analysis, IMHO... 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikemgb Posted February 10, 2017 Share #11 Posted February 10, 2017 Or an Olympus XA. Rangefinder and about 50% of QL17. Not sure what your budget is. I purchased a Leica IIIC with 50mm Elmar for about $275 a couple years ago. It worked when purchased; still works. Barnack Leicas are addictive though. You should be able to find the same for not much more....maybe less if you are patient. Barnacks are very addictive, they seem to multiply all on their own. They are very enjoyable to shoot, but very different from a "standard" rangefinder with RF and viewfinder combined. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith (M) Posted February 10, 2017 Share #12 Posted February 10, 2017 Anyway, I miss film, but being in my mid 70's I cannot start a new darkroom, so film would be B/W Lab developed then self scanned or CD. No darkroom needed - just a large changing bag (I use a large Paterson one). I process mostly at the kitchen sink, sometimes in the utility room. There is little to beat the anticipation, pleasure (and relief) in pulling a wet roll off the reel and seeing images there! Can B/W scanned film images be adjusted with software in the same way as digital originals? I scan with a V700, import into LR CC and make whatever adjustments to exposure & contrast etc might be needed. Are there any recommended reliable sources for used equipment? I have bought used bodies & lenses from Peter Loy and Red Dot and have no hesitation in recommending them. Ffordes also have a very good reputation. even if the answer is "Don't do it". Do "do it" ! 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
leica dream Posted February 10, 2017 Author Share #13 Posted February 10, 2017 It never amazes me that you guys are so generous with your input and advice. Experience counts for a lot so very grateful thanks for taking time to respond. Anyway, I had not thought of the Changing Bag option, I have Peak Imaging nearby so that was my initial thought for processing, but the bag would give even more interest. Glad to hear that scanning is a realistic option. I have used my Epson V700 Photo scanner a long time ago to transfer many transparencies to digital, so that all looks good especially as I could adjust as necessary. Thanks for the camera ideas too. I'll look around. I have been browsing the obvious like Ffordes and Red Dot but had not considered Peter Loy so thanks for that Keith. I have a long way to go yet, especially because those who have seen my posts going way back indicate that B/W is not for me. Circumstances have changed such that after delivering a major event a few months ago after 3 years preparation I now need a new project to indulge the grey matter. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin B Posted February 10, 2017 Share #14 Posted February 10, 2017 I use both film and digital photography in about equal amount. As others mentioned, you only need a darkroom to make silver gelatin prints from negatives. You likely are not planning to set up another darkroom anymore. This leaves the aspect of film photography reduced to slides or negatives. Part of the fun process for me to work with film is to be in full control of the film development and experiment with different developers etc. If this is taken out of the equation also - meaning the development would all be done by an external lab - it leaves you just with the negatives/slides and small photo prints from the lab (plus a photo CD with files in fairly low resolution). To get good digital copies of the negatives/slides, you need to vest additional time and eventually some money to digitize them yourself with a good [negative/slide] scanner. Yes, there is a difference between photos from a digital camera and film photos - maybe this alone will make it worth for you to go back to film. Good thing is that you should find easily a well maintained film camera - either in a camera store or online. Formerly highly rated film SLRs are going for less than $150-200 in EX condition. Soon after you will spend more money to purchase film and have it developed externally. The last point would be of my biggest concern for you - to work with film in general is much cheaper when things are done by yourself and not in a lab. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
adan Posted February 10, 2017 Share #15 Posted February 10, 2017 (edited) Can B/W scanned film images be adjusted with software in the same way as digital originals? Yes, as others have said. My own workflow is to scan myself using Vuescan, which will, as an option, save my images as .dng files, just like a digital Leica (not PanaLeica) produces. Which can then be processed in LR, or (my own choice) Adobe Camera Raw direct into full Photoshop. If I did go back (or is it forward) to film I would certainly want a rangefinder model so what is around and which best to choose? Others have made fine suggestions. If you want lens interchangeability at a less-then-Leica price, there are the various Canon and Nikon RFs from the 1960s, or the Minolta CLE (which is suddenly getting pricey, no doubt due to folks like you re-entering film). Personally, I loved the Leica P from around 1960 - screw-mount, but otherwise with all the features of a Leica M4 from 1967. About $250-300 for a silver body, plus a 50mm f/1.8 @ variously $75 to $175. A Leica screw-mount camera/lens combo (IIIC with 50 f/3.5) will be a bit more - $500. https://www.cameraquest.com/canonp.htm Are there any recommended reliable sources for used equipment? In the US: KEH .com, Tamarkin .com, Classic Connection .com, Camera West... no doubt many others. I fear any Leica would be outside my budget...............unless you people know better? Depends on your budget. See above regarding the older screw-mount Leicas with slower lenses. Idiosyncratic film loading through the bottom - I prefer the Canon P with swing-open back. What general purpose lens spec should I choose? Personal choice - but for an RF, likely a 50mm, 35mm or anything your find in between (e.g. Leica 40mm Summicron, various Cosina/Voigtlander lenses 35/40/50, Canon and Nikon made some lenses in Leica screwmount way back when). If I absolutely, positively had to get back into 35mm film rangefinder photography on a reasonable budget (which for me would mean at least three focal lengths - and NOT using the pricey Leica M lenses I already have!!) I would grab a clean Canon P with modern Voigtlander screw-mount lenses - 25 Skopar, 35 or 50 f/1.7, 90 APO-Lanthar. About $1600 all up. If the C/V lenses had been available 35 years ago, I likely would have gone that route back then. Deleting the rangefinder requirement, I'd get a Nikon F or Canon F-1 body with 20/24, 35 and 105 lenses from the 1960s-1980s. Probably also $1500-ish, and heavier. In reality, I would just get a used Leica M2/4/6 to use with the lenses I already own Edited February 10, 2017 by adan 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith (M) Posted February 10, 2017 Share #16 Posted February 10, 2017 (edited) especially because those who have seen my posts going way back indicate that B/W is not for me. I recall that from our discussions on Leica C images. Initially when I 'came back' to film I only used b&w, mainly because I had total control (developing, scanning, processing). Over the last three years or so I have tended to include some colour (C41 & E6), mostly relying on Canada Film Lab (formerly UK Film Lab) for 35mm dev/scan and Palm Lab for dev of MF, which I then scan on my V700. When I added the MP to my M7 35mm film camera collection the intention was to have b&w in the M7 and colour in the MP - but the best laid plans of mice & men etc... Anyway, the whole sequence of shooting film b&w provides total ownership and is an activity I find very rewarding! Edited February 10, 2017 by Keith (M) 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikemgb Posted February 10, 2017 Share #17 Posted February 10, 2017 Colour film can also be developed fairly easily at home. It's a little more demanding than black and white as the temperatures are higher and more critical but I have been very successful doing my own. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
EoinC Posted February 11, 2017 Share #18 Posted February 11, 2017 It never amazes me that you guys are so generous with your input and advice. Experience counts for a lot so very grateful thanks for taking time to respond. Anyway, I had not thought of the Changing Bag option, I have Peak Imaging nearby so that was my initial thought for processing, but the bag would give even more interest. Glad to hear that scanning is a realistic option. I have used my Epson V700 Photo scanner a long time ago to transfer many transparencies to digital, so that all looks good especially as I could adjust as necessary. Thanks for the camera ideas too. I'll look around. I have been browsing the obvious like Ffordes and Red Dot but had not considered Peter Loy so thanks for that Keith. I have a long way to go yet, especially because those who have seen my posts going way back indicate that B/W is not for me. Circumstances have changed such that after delivering a major event a few months ago after 3 years preparation I now need a new project to indulge the grey matter. For B&W, I use a changing bag, Patterson Universal tank, and do the developing in a bathroom. No mess, no darkroom, no worries. About half an hour from pulling the film from the camera, the negatives can be hanging up to dry. 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikemgb Posted February 11, 2017 Share #19 Posted February 11, 2017 For B&W, I use a changing bag, Patterson Universal tank, and do the developing in a bathroom. No mess, no darkroom, no worries. About half an hour from pulling the film from the camera, the negatives can be hanging up to dry. The bathroom is also very good for dust control, turn the shower on full hot for 5 minutes with the bathroom door closed. The resulting steam seems to take the dust out of the air as it dissipates. I learned this trick recently and the difference it made to my negs is amazing. 5 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
leica dream Posted February 11, 2017 Author Share #20 Posted February 11, 2017 OK, I think I am ready to start experimenting - but from bottom up...........My Epson V700 scanner is connected to my 12 year old WIN XP PCwhich I am gradually moving away from to my MAC Bookpro so need to assure connection there. I have been digging around and found heaps of old 35mm negatives which I can then experiment through the scanner and Photoshop. Finally, I have found some old film cameras so I might be able to run a film or two through when I am ready to try the developing stage before progressing a search for a more permanent/up to date film camera. Just for interest, these are my first cameras. A Kodak Duaflex II, which is from 1951 and is little more than a box with 620 roll film and fixed 1/25 exposure in a beautiful leather case. Next my first 35mm Braun Super Paxette 1L from 1958 with leather case and lens hood, which has a rudimentary rangefinder and fixed lens. This looks serviceable but needs some cleaning especially the optics so might be good for a start. I might seek professional cleaning if I progress that one. Then a later (probably 1980's) Olympus AF - 10 mini which looks in condition my best bet for my early experiments. Finally, a very old camera indeed, still in its damaged box but with instructions, is a glass slide camera, bellows with maximum speed 1/100. This is a Contessa Minar 61/2 cm X 9cm which I inherited from my Grandfather and used frequently during the 1950's when I could get plates, but showing age now. So there we are. Based on all your input I seem to have basics to start experimenting and would just need to acquire the processing stage items. I'll keep you updated and probably ask for guidance as I go along. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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