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Buying a well used M4-P -- good idea?


Poki

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Hi together,

 

I recently startet to develop an interest in shooting film. Now, using and loving my M (240) for more than two years now, a film M is definitely the way to go for me. I already ordered a Leica IIIa with a 5 cm Elmar to give it a try, but that's just for fun, so I'd like to also try getting used to a "proper" film M.

 

The question is: Is it a good idea to invest in a well used M4-P (see pictures attached)? The seller promised me it works flawlessly, and at a price of €400 there's hardly any money to lose. Still, I don't want to buy it to resell it, I want to use it - do you think this is a good way to get a first film M? Or would you rather invest in a body in better condition? 

 

Also, any recommendation for a light meter?

 

Thank you for your input!

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The price seems acceptable with the pictured condition. I would purchase conditioned on the results of one test roll. PocketLightMeter for the iPhone provides a decent, free meter option.

 

Eric

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I use a pair of M4-Ps and have done so since the early 1990's with no outstanding issues. Of course, I have them CLA'd every 8 to 10 years, depending upon how much action they've seen. The viewfinder is a little "cluttered," but, because I use mainly 28 and 35mm focal lengths, I haven't found this a big problem in practice. The quick-load mechanism makes loading film easier than say an M3 or M2 (which I also owned and used since the late 1970's). Some claim that the "action" is not a "silky" on the M4-P models than .... say ... the M4, but, I don't spend lots of time thinking about this ... in fact, I'm not sure that I have noticed much of a difference in that regard. Finally, some people might miss the "self timers," which is not found on the M4-* bodies ... I never did.

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It looks like M4-P which was in use for photography. Body condition is irrelevant if you want camera to take pictures with. If everything works inside it will works until it is time for CLA.

I'm using iPhone free app as light meter. If I feel fancy, here 100$ Sekonic l'208, which is also good enough after some learning how to use it properly.  

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That M4-P looks hardly used. Usually the rewind release lever is the first thing to show wear - it turns shiny. The back shows wear from carrying. The price is right. If it wasn't dropped it should be good.

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Fortunately you are coming from the direction of wanting an M4-P, and don't really need to be persuaded to buy one instead of going for the 'jewel like quality' of an M2 or M3. Of course the later is baloney, an M4-P can be just as jewel like and smooth as an M3, and it has the internal parts strong enough to take a motor winder so it's a double win. An M4-P is an ideal first (or last) Leica rangefinder, tough as old boots and not so expensive you won't mind using it. The caveat is the mechanical condition and yes you should probably put a roll through it using all the shutter speeds and shine a strong light into the lens on a blank frame to check for any pinpricks in the shutter curtain.

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What is that deep depression above the M flash synch plug? Looks like it sustained a good hit with a pin inserted that pushed the plug and surrounding top-plate material forward in the rangefinder mechanism direction.

 

If you inspect it and confirm operation, and don't care about the depression, go for it.

 

I'd keep looking, but then I like M2s too ;)

 

Otherwise, you are definitely going to love a film M. Enjoy!

 

Cheers

 

J :)

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I've owned (and still own one) Leica rangefinder cameras in far worse condition than the one you are interested in, and they have worked absolutely fine. A CLA will cost you a bit but might be worth factoring in should the camera prove to need one. As previously stated you really could do with inspecting and confirming that everything is OK (especially the rangefinder as it has obviously had a substantial know at some time in its life), but if it is, then the price is about as little as you are likely to pay for any working M rangefinder body, excluding the rangefinderless ones anyway. Enjoy it if you buy it.

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Thank you all for your input! Some interesting points were brought up. The offer seems to be gone by now, so I'll keep my eyes open for similar offers. I'm in no hurry, fortunately, and I'm going to shoot some rolls on my IIIa until I find a decent offer for a film M.

 

As for which M to get, I just don't like the look of the leather that's cut straight on the sides of the upper part of the lens mount, that's why most M2's and M3's aren't really an option. Yeah, I know, it sounds like a minor thing, but I just can't get over it. The M5 is too big and heavy. The M7 is no option since I don't want a camera that needs batteries to function at all shutter speeds, and the MP and M-A are quite expensive.

 

I'll see if I can find a M4, M4-2, M4-P or M6 for a decent price (the light meter of the M6 would definitely be a plus for me). I'll definitely share a few shots here once I'm able to put some rolls through my first film M.

 

PS: It seems to be quite easy to find an M4-P in very good condition for €700, although at that price, a M6 isn't that far away either.

Edited by Poki
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The llla with a clean Elmar will produce results every bit as good as an M camera. Obviously an M mount allows you to use newer M lenses which you can't do with an LTM camera.

 

I'm not sure I understand what you don't like about the M2/3 but I would suggest you buy your camera in person, ideally from a dealer who will offer a warranty if there is some fault or other.

 

I see so many posts from newcomers who have bought an M on ebay only to find the shutter is faulty or there's problems with the rangefinder. It's fine if you know about it and pay an appropriate price, but you don't want to get your fingers burnt with your first M.

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... It seems to be quite easy to find an M4-P in very good condition for €700, although at that price, a M6 isn't that far away either.

... and given that you say that meter is an important plus for you, I'd consider seriously an M6, even at, say, + 50% than a M4-P : it is newer, it is very well maintainable, and there are a lot around.

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The camera depicted in post #1 above has a dent next to the eye-piece and above the 'M' flash cord socket. As a general rule, never buy a camera (or lens) with dings or dents when you plan to use it. Scratches (except on glass), worn leatherette, flaky paint—all those are fine with a well-used item, but dings and dents are not.

 

Sure—some dents are harmless. If you accidentally dent your own camera and it keeps working flawlessly then simply keep using it. But do not buy such a beast from someone else.

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@Poki,

I have used an M4-P for several years and they are outstanding cameras. 

 

As 01af noted, be wary of cameras with deep dings and large dents like the one pictured in your post.  Another couple of wear issues to be on the lookout for are the strap lug holes being worn to an oval shape or to an enlarged round shape (indicates extensive carrying and possibly heavy use). 

 

Another thing to watch is excessive pressure plate and film guide rails wear.  The pressure plate and guide rails inside the back of the camera can show some wear as long as it is not excessive.  When the pressure plate and rails are well worn, it is an indication that the camera has seen heavy use, possibly as a press camera.  The cleaner the camera and the less use it has been put through the better, although this does cause the price to increase.  Buying a clean used M camera with light use is money well spent in my view. 

 

Regarding light meters, the Sekonic L-508 is my favorite; check ebay and you will find a decent example of this meter; in fact, there are around 17 of them for sale on ebay at the moment.

Edited by Carlos Danger
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Thanks again for all of your input! The camera I was offered initially was available again, and I just pulled the plug and got it. I already received it today, and the dent is so small, I probably wouldn't even have noticed it. The light in the photo above seems to have make it seem far more problematic than it actually is. The shutter speeds sound correct, and the rangefinder seems to be calibrated pretty good (it's VERY slightly off compared to my M (240), but it remains to be seen whether that's a problem.

 

I just put 25 shots of the first roll of film in my life (Kodak Ektar 100) through that M4-P during a 3 hour walk. I didn't miss the light meter nearly as much as I thought - I used an app to meter initially, and then just adjusted here and there where I felt it was needed. Obviously I don't know whether all my photos are exposed correctly, but I feel quite confident they aren't off by much. Here are my first impressions with the camera, if you are interested:

 

  • The build quality seems to be just as good as on my M 240 - a surprise to me, considering how many people seem to dislike the mechanical quality of the M4-P.
  • The film loading is incredibly easy, I could do it within a few seconds, even though I never loaded any film camera before.
  • The ISO-indicator on the back is useless ... Just why did they go a step back from the dial they used before and after the M-4P? It doesn't even remotely indicate which film speed I'm currently using ...
  • The shutter button (with a soft release button) and the shutter sound are both very nice!
  • The viewfinder seems to be just as big and bright as the one in my M 240. Even the framelines (which are lit by a LED in newer digital M's) didn't feel any less bright in comparison. Also, I'm not sure why so many people write that the viewfinder is cluttered - isn't it pretty much the same as in the digital M's, just without the light meter information?
  • It feels quite a bit lighter than the M 240, which is definitely a plus.

 

@Poki,

Another thing to watch is excessive pressure plate and film guide rails wear. 

 

 

@Carlos Danger: Thanks for that tip! The pressure plate looks like new to me. The camera all in all surprisingly doesn't look like it has been used much from the inside, it just has some wear on the outside. But to be honest, my M 240 looks even worse cosmetically, and I bought that one new just over two years ago.

 

 

The camera depicted in post #1 above has a dent next to the eye-piece and above the 'M' flash cord socket. As a general rule, never buy a camera (or lens) with dings or dents when you plan to use it. Scratches (except on glass), worn leatherette, flaky paint—all those are fine with a well-used item, but dings and dents are not.

 

Sure—some dents are harmless. If you accidentally dent your own camera and it keeps working flawlessly then simply keep using it. But do not buy such a beast from someone else.

 

@01af: Like I said above, luckily, that "dent" is very minor in reality. I'm not even able to feel it with my thumb, and without the right light, it's totally invisible. Since the shutter speeds sound accurate and the viewfinder is reasonably well calibrated, I don't think that will be a problem.

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