Ilford Witness & Dallmeyer Septac 2" f1.5

[John E Robertson]

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NICE NICE : the "Leica-inspired-cameras" that are not trivial "Leica-copies" are very very interesting cameras: one day in Paris I saw a FOCA at a nice shop next to Montparnasse Cemetery... it was very fine... does some of our french friends have some pictures of it to show ?

I have been looking for a nice used Foca Standard (the one with no r/f and a 35mm lens.)for some time, the make was never imported into UK, despite the mere twenty odd miles that divides the two countries!! There are a couple of good Foca sites but their photographers never seem to visit other sites:rolleyes:

Willy Ronis used Foca cameras for a while.

OPL FOCA: materiels, appareils photographiques, accessoires et documentations

[John E Robertson]

Duncan

Just looking at some pictures of the Witness, I notice the close proximity of the lens release button to the lens mount. I sure some screw thread lenses will not mount on this camera, one I can think of is the current Nokton 50mm f1.5. Have you tried other lenses on it??

 

John.

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[dkCambridgeshire]

Duncan

Just looking at some pictures of the Witness, I notice the close proximity of the lens release button to the lens mount. I sure some screw thread lenses will not mount on this camera, one I can think of is the current Nokton 50mm f1.5. Have you tried other lenses on it??

 

John.

 

John, I have fitted 5cm and 90mm Elmars without any problems ... I am not familiar with the Nokton but just Googled a picture of one and it looks as if it will fit.

 

Dunk

[dkCambridgeshire]

MW had this Daron lens for sale a few weeks ago

 

think its sold now.

I have and use the Witness' little brother the Advocate. These were used on the Successful 1953 Everest Expedition.

 

MW Classic are offering another DARON lens s/n 1087 with interrupted thread for the Witness camera this week 15/03/2008 priced £2495

 

http://www.mwclassic.com/acatalog/CD146L.jpg

 

... and have been advised by Mahendra that they sold a Witness complete with a Daron lens to Japanese collector recently for £5000 .

 

dunk

[John E Robertson]

I noticed this Dunk, a bit too expensive for my taste!!!!

Taylor Hobson supplied large numbers of camera lenses to various UK government departments, I bet there are some lying on a shelf in some store somewhere. Perhaps that is where these surfaced from!!!

John.

BTW I have now got a Foca and love it to bits, its a delight to use!! I bought it from a guy in the Focaforum, fully serviced, gives great results.

[dkCambridgeshire]

I noticed this Dunk, a bit too expensive for my taste!!!!

Taylor Hobson supplied large numbers of camera lenses to various UK government departments, I bet there are some lying on a shelf in some store somewhere. Perhaps that is where these surfaced from!!!

John.

QUOTE]

 

John, The Daron lens was made by Dallmeyer not TTH . Ilford did supply some Witness cameras to HM Govt. Prisons but these had 9cm lenses according to Andrew Holliman's ILFORD book. Incidentally, Andrew Holliman's "MAX No." table on page 46 of his book shows 164 Daron lenses and 335 Witness cameras ... but these totals appear to have been miscalculated and must be 1 short ... ie if lowest and highest serial numbers are 5004 and 5339 ... and 942 and 1106 ... then totals s/b 165 and 336.

 

336 cameras of which only 75 are known to exist according to A. Holliman's last published census is a very small figure and thus explains the current premium price. By the way, I think I have identified just a few more known serial numbers (probably maximum of 5) Witness cameras not listed in AH's full census figures (he sent me his spreadsheet showing all the individual cameras serial numbers he has traced)... I found the additional numbers in old Sotheby and Christies auction catalogues but need to back-track and document them properly when have a few spare hours.

 

There are probably some almost as scarce Leica cameras which command nowhere near the current Witness £3k body price. Consider the Leicaflex SL2 MOT with reputedly just 1020 made many of which would have been subject to heavy professional use ... so it is unlikely that there are many SL2 MOT models in collectible condition ... but the few that appear for sale seldom sell for more than £1k (ish)

 

Cheers

 

dunk

[John E Robertson]

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Sorry Duncan

I didn't mean that the Daron was made by TTH, I meant to say that I often wonder what is lurking in the Government's "drawers" if you know what I mean. As Wray, Dalmeyer, TTH and others supplied them with equipment.

My TTH Anastigmat turned up that way, I bought it about 20 years ago, brand new in its original wraping with a couple of test negatives included. Its absolutely superb, and is used on my Bessa R2. A relative who worked at Aldershot found it, it cost me £20, he said there was other "stuff" there.

British lenses and camera equipment is often "written off " when compared to German and Japanese stuff, but it should not be.

My Foca lens is also a bit rare, according to Focagraphie only about 200 Oplex 35mm lenses made, and mine has a serial number only 20 less than the last recorded one.

The French were another government who hoarded a lot of camera equipment made in their own country.

Have you shot much with the Witness yet??

[dkCambridgeshire]

Have not used the Witness yet ... but just taken early retirement so should have more time now to use cameras as well as collect them. Your Foca camera is a good find.

 

Cheers

 

dunk

[Michael-IIIf]

the 39mm screw thread has 3 'gaps' or 'slots' cut into it enabling the thread to be 'bayoneted' onto the body ... but the similarly interrupted body thread will also accept normal L39mm thread lenses.

 

How totally brilliant is that. I want one.

[John E Robertson]

Another Daron has appeared in MW classics site this weekend. Where are these suddenly surfacing from???

[ecdysiast]

I have a Witness, but with the 2"/1.9. I'll have to check the serial number and post it.

 

The cutaway-thread lens mount is similar to that on the Steinheil Casca and Casca II, which were designed at about the same time. See

 

Casca

[dkCambridgeshire]

I have a Witness, but with the 2"/1.9. I'll have to check the serial number and post it.

 

The cutaway-thread lens mount is similar to that on the Steinheil Casca and Casca II, which were designed at about the same time. See

 

Casca

 

 

Please post the serial numbers of your Witness and lens

 

Thanks

 

dunk

[chris_livsey]

No doubt the Witness followers will have seen the camera for sale on the auction site from Real Camera Manchester, which I have had opportunity to handle.

There is also this recent sale to look at: http://www.photomemorabilia.co.uk/Ilford/Witness_sale.html

 

Real Camera told me a son arrived with a box of his Dad's cameras, they were going through Feds and Zorkis and the Witness was in the bottom, nothing else of note in the box!!

[MarkP]

This camera is new to me Dunk. It is very beautiful.

Looking forward to seeing how you find it in use, and how that lens performs.

 

Regards,

Mark

[Denys]

Fascinating topic - I didn't realise so few of these were made. My wife's grandfather had one, but gave it away (woops). We have the instruction manual, however, and it includes a comb-like device..not sure what it's purpose is..

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[Antonio Madureira]

I have been looking for a nice used Foca Standard (the one with no r/f and a 35mm lens.)for some time, the make was never imported into UK, despite the mere twenty odd miles that divides the two countries!! There are a couple of good Foca sites but their photographers never seem to visit other sites:rolleyes:

Willy Ronis used Foca cameras for a while.

OPL FOCA: materiels, appareils photographiques, accessoires et documentations

 

I have been looking for a nice used Foca Standard (the one with no r/f and a 35mm lens.)for some time, the make was never imported into UK, despite the mere twenty odd miles that divides the two countries!! There are a couple of good Foca sites but their photographers never seem to visit other sites:rolleyes:

Willy Ronis used Foca cameras for a while.

OPL FOCA: materiels, appareils photographiques, accessoires et documentations

With almost a nine years delay, let me show my FOCA pieces:

 

Foca 1 (*) - OPLAR 1:3,5  f = 3,5cm

Foca 2 (**) - FOCA 1:3,5   f =  5 cm  with sports finder

Foca Universal -  OPLAR 1:2,8  f = 5cm  With universal revolver finder

 

and a nice pocket -book on Foca theory and practice

Thanks 

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Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

[dkCambridgeshire]

On 3/17/2008 at 9:53 AM, dkCambridgeshire said:

John E Robertson said:

I noticed this Dunk, a bit too expensive for my taste!!!!

Taylor Hobson supplied large numbers of camera lenses to various UK government departments, I bet there are some lying on a shelf in some store somewhere. Perhaps that is where these surfaced from!!!

John.

QUOTE]

 

John, The Daron lens was made by Dallmeyer not TTH . Ilford did supply some Witness cameras to HM Govt. Prisons but these had 9cm lenses according to Andrew Holliman's ILFORD book. Incidentally, Andrew Holliman's "MAX No." table on page 46 of his book shows 164 Daron lenses and 335 Witness cameras ... but these totals appear to have been miscalculated and must be 1 short ... ie if lowest and highest serial numbers are 5004 and 5339 ... and 942 and 1106 ... then totals s/b 165 and 336.

 

336 cameras of which only 75 are known to exist according to A. Holliman's last published census is a very small figure and thus explains the current premium price. By the way, I think I have identified just a few more known serial numbers (probably maximum of 5) Witness cameras not listed in AH's full census figures (he sent me his spreadsheet showing all the individual cameras serial numbers he has traced)... I found the additional numbers in old Sotheby and Christies auction catalogues but need to back-track and document them properly when have a few spare hours.

 

There are probably some almost as scarce Leica cameras which command nowhere near the current Witness £3k body price. Consider the Leicaflex SL2 MOT with reputedly just 1020 made many of which would have been subject to heavy professional use ... so it is unlikely that there are many SL2 MOT models in collectible condition ... but the few that appear for sale seldom sell for more than £1k (ish)

 

Cheers

 

dunk

To correct my erroneous statement above: The Daron 5cm f2.9 lens was made by Northern Scientific  – NOT Dallmeyer and NOT TTH. Lens grinding equipment was supplied to Northern Scientific Equipment by Ilford. The collapsible Daron 5cm f2.9 lens design has a built-in extension which when activated via a detent button, enabled close focus to 15 inches. 

Apologies for the previous very misleading statement / typo. 

Flints Auctioneers tested a Daron lens prior to a 2019 sale; their test report refers to a Dallmeyer Daron – but surely this should read Northern Scientific Daron? 

Flints do not mention the test pix actual lens' apertures https://www.flintsauctions.com/news-item/winchester-walk-with-the-ilford-witness-dallmeyer-daron/. but the sample images look fine 

I'm interested in hearing from any members who've actually used the Daron lens and who can advise how its imaging in terms of sharpness, bokeh, distortion, vignetting, etc., at both full and stopped down apertures, compares to e.g., the f3.5 and f2.8 Elmars.

Does the Daron lens have an acceptable full aperture performance?  I'm aware the f2.8 Elmar was not manufactured until 1957 when Leitz lanthanum glass permitted its 'stretched' aperture.

I'm wondering how Witness camera designer Robert Sternberg (pre-war Leitz Wetzlar designer and from 1936, Ensign Ltd London lens designer) managed to compute his 'stretched aperture' Daron lens, and if its design included any rare earth glass? Does anyone have access to a Daron lens' multiview / orthographic drawing which clearly shows the number of lens elements? There are no illustrations in Andrew Holliman's 'ILFORD' book. 

I sold my Witness camera and Daron lens over 10 years ago and regret not using it prior to its sale. My curiosity regarding the Daron lens design has been sparked by my revived interest in the Witness camera and its lens options. 

Additional Ilford Witness / Daron lens history: https://www.photomemorabilia.co.uk/Ilford/Witness.html

BW, dunk