Jump to content

diglloyd revisits the Leica S2


R3D-D0T

Recommended Posts

I am on the same boat as you, Tom, with an S007 body and almost all the lenses. But let's face it, the GFX is not just a "pre-announcement datasheet". There are a bunch of videos now online showing the main aspects of that system in use by real photographers, and they look good to me, on all the aspects that you mention. Availability in stores apparently from 23 February. Which doesn't mean I'll buy one (I'll rather spend my cash on visiting interesting locations, renting a studio space, hiring models etc to actually develop my photography). But if Fuji make an S lens adapter that actually works as good as the H adapter for the S, then I'll consider it, as a second body. In any case, the X1D and the GFX are, in my view, the two cameras that Leica should watch because they can quickly steal sales away from both the S and the SL systems. As to Fuji's optical quality...if the existing X lenses are any indication, then I am not worried.

I would trust  the x1d much more tha Fuji,  with the X1d small size and lenses, and the fact that we know Hasselblads experience with digital medium format, etc.

I am not a fan of Fujis X-trans sensors and color tweaking, so I have yet to see how they tweak color of the Fujy gfx.

I also find some of the Fuji lenses feel fine, but somewhat "hollow", so also here I would have to see more real world examples. I am not sure to believe that Fuji can build a lens for half price of Hasselbladt or 1/4 price of Leica which still offers the same level of optical quality.

If I did not have the S system already, which I like, I would not order a Fuji gfx before checking it out and seeing more examples and reading more reports.

I would probably go for the x1d, if I didn't have a S-System already. But the S is too good to let it go, and switching system forth and back is to expensive in medium format world.

Link to post
Share on other sites

"not worried" as in the Fuji lenses likely won't be as good as Leica's or that they will suffice?

 

I mean that the Fuji XF lenses are excellent and I am not worried that their GFX brethren will limit the performance of the GFX camera. I am not going to argue about "as good as Leica"; I use both systems and I like the results from both.

  • Like 3
Link to post
Share on other sites

  • 4 months later...

I think the X1D and GFX are extremely overrated and less of a system for a target market (based on the lens choices) for Leica. Using the now "old" by tech-years standard of the Sony 51MP sensor in the X1D, the same sensor used in the Phase One 50 and the Pentax 645Z is ridiculous, and I think Fuji failed its customers with ergonomics on the GFX and also failed to deliver a medium format Z-Trans sensor.

 

And lets face it, the S really really isn't landscape photographers.

LEt's look at Leica's marketing decisions for the S, SL and TL systems (and not in the US)...

 

There was a GOOD reason that Rankin, Ellen Von Unwerth, and fashion and portrait photographers were handed and S and SL and not strict sports, etc shooters. There is a good reason that the high cost of the bodies are what they are.

 

Correct me if I am wrong, but if you are saying that the S, SL and TL are doing poorly you are likely not one of these types of photographers. IF you are saying the M is doing poorly you are not a street photographer. IF you are trying to compare Leica to Canon, Nikon, Fuji, Pentax, Sony or Hasselblad you are missing the point of what these cameras are and who they are designed to fulfill - what professional market - and why the cost.

 

There is a saying in the world of finance, you can't have the discussion until you can AFFORD to. You won't even be invited to the table...

 

 

The Leica camera systems, within all of their "faults" are the best within a particular market. Dare I say a market that only Leica fulfills.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Advertisement (gone after registration)

I think the X1D and GFX are extremely overrated and less of a system for a target market (based on the lens choices) for Leica. Using the now "old" by tech-years standard of the Sony 51MP sensor in the X1D, the same sensor used in the Phase One 50 and the Pentax 645Z is ridiculous, and I think Fuji failed its customers with ergonomics on the GFX and also failed to deliver a medium format Z-Trans sensor.

 

And lets face it, the S really really isn't landscape photographers.

LEt's look at Leica's marketing decisions for the S, SL and TL systems (and not in the US)...

 

There was a GOOD reason that Rankin, Ellen Von Unwerth, and fashion and portrait photographers were handed and S and SL and not strict sports, etc shooters. There is a good reason that the high cost of the bodies are what they are.

 

Correct me if I am wrong, but if you are saying that the S, SL and TL are doing poorly you are likely not one of these types of photographers. IF you are saying the M is doing poorly you are not a street photographer. IF you are trying to compare Leica to Canon, Nikon, Fuji, Pentax, Sony or Hasselblad you are missing the point of what these cameras are and who they are designed to fulfill - what professional market - and why the cost.

 

There is a saying in the world of finance, you can't have the discussion until you can AFFORD to. You won't even be invited to the table...

 

 

The Leica camera systems, within all of their "faults" are the best within a particular market. Dare I say a market that only Leica fulfills.

 

Firstly I got to say it's hilarious that anyone would use the "out dated sensor tech" argument on a Leica forum. Leica have made a career out of using sensors *nearly* up to current standards. The current Sony miniMF sensor may be 4 years old but there's still nothing better in it's class and it's still a bit better than the one in the type 007. As someone who owns and uses a S2, S007, 645Z AND X1D (as well as the M, SL and T systems plus gear from Fuji, Sony and Olympus), I know. I'm not guessing. By this time next year there will be 7 lenses in each of the Fuji and Hasselblad systems. Nothing at all from Leica for the S in several years. And these are first generation cameras. In 18 months we'll have an X1D-100C. What do Leica do then?

 

The X1D is HALF the cost of an S007. The Fuji is nearly a THIRD the cost of a 007. And the lenses are good. Very good. Sure, the S lenses are the best there is. Fast and stunning. But they're also expensive and have a reliability issue. I have the three X1D lenses and 5 S lenses and there's no problem at all with the 'blad lenses. It's a lot of money for a stop and a half. If you NEED f2.5 lenses they're the only game in town but most don't, especially in studio. And both systems are bringing out a sub f3 prime this year. Sure the lenses match the best from Phase and 'blad but they have cameras that resolve those lenses. Or a portable system that cost double the competition but with half the usability.

 

The S007 could be a sensational landscape camera. It should be a sensational landscape camera. Good size. Reasonable weight. Live view and a great OVF (although I prefer mirrorless) and those lenses. But it's hobbled by stupid decisions in firmware and a terrible zoom lens. Mandatory LENR and a 2 minute time restriction aren't necessary but some *genius* at Leica can't see the forest for the trees. The 30-90 is AUD13K! And it's positively stomped on by a 25 year old Pentax zoom. Really?? A$13K for a lens that NEVER gets sharp in the corners? A zoom that's out resolved by the SL 24-90 which is half the cost? With the primes this could have been THE landscape system but Leica are too precious for that. Too narrow minded. Too stubborn.

 

And with a single focus point and the field curvature of some of the lenses it's not exactly leading the way as a studio camera either. Even the 645Z has more than one focus point. And the Fuji and Hasselblad can focus precisely on whatever you want without worrying about focus/recompose/curvature.

 

You're about the only one I seen who thinks that the Hasselblad and Fuji are under rated. They're changing the perception of miniMF. They're making photographers excited. They're getting a new user base. The Fuji is butt ugly but it's actually a great camera in the hand. I tested them both extensively before making my decision. I chose the X1D because I got the camera with three leaf shutter lenses for the cost of two Leica S lenses with CS shutters and the 120mm will be 40% less than the equivalent Leica. It's ludicrous that I should feel the need to have more than one MF system. But Leica just doesn't seem to get it. Or they do and they're not telling anybody.

 

The S system is tanking. I'm a fan and a user and even I can see that. Leica need a camera that can keep up with the lenses. Off centre AF. Resolution and DR. Mirrorless. And they need a set of f4.5 lenses to have a lower cost of entry to the system. The S is a direct competitor to other non interchangeable miniMF cameras and it can't compete on those brilliant lenses alone, especially when users have to wonder when not if they're AF motors are going to fail.

 

I love my S bodies and lenses. But without Leica taking the market seriously I can't see how I'll be doing so in a couple of years. I want the S system to succeed. I'll be first in line for a mirrorless S. But the system could be dead and buried before they release it.

 

Gordon

Edited by FlashGordonPhotography
  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

I love my S bodies and lenses. But without Leica taking the market seriously I can't see how I'll be doing so in a couple of years. I want the S system to succeed. I'll be first in line for a mirrorless S. But the system could be dead and buried before they release it.

 

Gordon

 

 

Thanks Gordon, several important messages there!

 

My hope for a future S comes from the existing SL; I find the latter an excellent and versatile tool. If/when Leica manages to up-res the S based on the SL (not entirely, for sure, but bits and pieces), the company gets a very component miniMF platform. Whether the new S will be mirror-less or not is hard to know. Personally I very much like the SL's EVF, but the optical finder in the S is certainly a pleasure to use, as well.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Mr. LLoyd's opinions aside ... I have a different perspective to share ... or at least a few questions I've been asking myself for some time.

 

My personal history with Leica has been long and fruitful. It was so because each different camera/lens system was clearly positioned in terms of primary use. That association wasn't based on latest/greatest, but more upon dedication to that primary use ... and perhaps more importantly, my own understanding of my primary needs.

 

For me, the M is a rangefinder, and a rangefinder promotes a specific way of seeing and feeling. While Leica has always offered M do-dads to cobble together some other functions ... there was no mistaking its' primary reason for existence and they didn't alter the lean base form of the camera itself. In my case, I primarily used Ms almost exclusively with B&W film ... which is why my current M is a M Monochrome ... an even more specific primary use. I recently had the sensor replaced which makes it viable for the foreseeable future. It continues to do everything I want it to do.

 

Were I into color rangefinder work, the new M-10 seems a move in the right direction. 

 

The S was a perfect answer to very defined needs based on a long history of MF use. I participated in the digital development of MF from Imacon, Kodak, and Dalsa backs on Hasselblad V, Contax 645 and Mamiya 645/6X7 Cameras, through the formidable FF H4D/60. The S solved some issues I had with the H system because of the S dual shutter and dual card capture ... and most of all the fast aperture splendid optics which are excellent wide open. It expanded the usage across the spread of professional and personal needs that experience had clearly defined. I've yet to face a commercial or personal application that a 37 meg larger sensor has fallen short on. Should a rare occasion arise needing more, I'll rent it rather than allow a minor need affect the realities of a majority of use.

 

The S system would most benefit from more proactive service and better communication to reassert it's value as a reliable professional level tool.

 

The SL is an enigma to me. Probably because I cannot ascertain a specific need it uniquely solves. I guess if I had a collection of R lenses it would be of some interest for sure. However, I don't.      

 

So, in the face of declining commercial applications (in general, clients from top corporations, to local clients, to wedding/portrait are demanding more and paying less) ... plus, the shift of actual exposure of work toward less demanding media ... it seems that the advancements we are all clamoring for, relentless demands for more and more, vigorous criticism of anything that doesn't zoom into the future, could be viewed as silly at best, ruinous at worst.

 

While I understand the need to chum the waters of desire with attractive features and bragging rights (marketing is the engine), I question our participation at great cost financially and in terms of diverting attention from our primary purpose. I'm reminded of this every time I glance at a vintage photo on my wall still unmatched by anything among the billions of digital images.

 

Have we lost our way when 99% of all photo conversations revolve around some minutia driven technical points, or revolution that changes the form but not the substance?  Would all of us, including internet Gurus and Gadflies better benefit from the same level of examination of the underlying reason for our images and creative expressions?

 

I know, I know ... a voice in the wilderness (LOL!).

 

- Marc

  • Like 6
Link to post
Share on other sites

Marc, If one prioritizes how the subject is seen (as I do), one could summarize the Leica range as having the best RF viewing (M), the best optical viewing (S), and the best EVF viewing (SL).

 

For me, as a non-pro photographer, the goal is a beautiful print of a worthy pic. That's been the case for over 40 years, film and diigital. The camera (and lens) has always been just one part of that workflow; the back end processing has been equally or more critical. But the most important tools remain between the ears... a good eye and good judgment. My collection of vintage prints (and books) also keeps me motivated to use those tools wisely.

 

Forgive my inner pedant, but I've noted your use of it's / its, which detracts from your otherwise articulate posts. The only time an apostrophe is warranted is for the contraction of 'it is' or 'it has' (it's). Otherwise, it's (it is) its... no apostrophe needed to show possession.

 

Jeff

Edited by Jeff S
  • Like 3
Link to post
Share on other sites

Marc,

 

I think the important word here is WAS. "The S was a perfect answer to very defined needs based on a long history of MF use." ​ And that's no longer the case. Other systems now do all of that, except the dual shutter, which is rarely important for most. Leica had a niche but now that niche has moved and Leica aren't even IN the niche anymore. Mirrorless in the new disruptive technology in photography and the S system has been caught as the most vulnerable player because the competitors are also fixed back systems in the same MP and sensor size category. In a world of larger cameras with interchangeable backs the S was lighter, cheaper and smaller while still having great optics and IQ. That's simply no longer the case. It's caught in no mans land now. Phase and H system camera will survive for a while because the sensors are larger and the MP counts are much higher but I don't see any new camera coming that doesn't have a mirrorless option.

 

Ironically the SL, while not perfect, seems to get this. It's jumping on the mirrorless bandwagon relatively early. It's the highest build quality in its class. The lenses are superb (so far). It's got the best EVF, battery life, weather sealing and usability of any mirrorless camera. And it's incredibly flexible with the use of adaptors. This combination of usability, flexibility and build quality do make it the 35mm system I have been looking for. For me mirrorless is now almost essential for the way I like to work and the SL offers that. It let's me use all the lenses I use every day (like Canon's TS lenses). And it is vastly different from the Sonys in usability, layout and build quality. Lastly Leica didn't have anything in this space so it made sense to enter it with a mirrorless camera. It also gave them the path they'd promised R lens owners for a long time.

 

With the S system what I think is that Leica currently have an opportunity. There's room for a third mirrorless miniMF player. Leica already have a full lens range (although a 300mm and a 22mm would be nice). *IF* Leica make a mirrorless camera that competes with the Fuji and Hasselblad AND they're more proactive about their service setup then they could leapfrog both in this new market. Removing the mirror from a type 007 will reduce the cost substantially. Then they automatically have the most lenses. The fastest lenses. Leaf shutter AND focal plane options. Then they need to market the sh*t out of it. Properly this time. Upgrade the zoom. Release a roadmap of f4.5 lenses. Work with someone to make a HSS option.

 

If I were Leica I would be releasing a fuzzy out of focus image of some new concept camera TODAY.

 

Or have the decency to tell us they've given up so we can cut our losses and move on.

 

Gordon

 

p.s. For most that article I think he has no idea but at least now I know why I don't subscribe to that rubbish......

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Gordon, I think Leica zoom have copy variation. I tested one at Leica store SF, the performance is actually very good cross zoom range. After 70, it require at least f8 for corner, but that is what I will use for it if i shoot landscape. It doesn't have soft corner.

 

I personally hope Leica will stay with OVF. So far, all the EVF camera I have used not meet my requirement. Those are not Not even close to D810 or 5Dxyz OVF level, not to mention S. I haven't used A9 yet.

 

For S to be a better all around camera that can be used for landscape, Leica just need a new S with more pixel and better DR with great LV, maybe have EFC shutter, and no mandertory NR.

 

I don't feel S006 comparing short to anything out there. Things can be improved like LV, no NR and better DR. But in the end, I still prefer its files to all other latest cameras by a wide margin including D810 A7RII etc...

 

Camera as a tool don't need to be complicated. There are still lots of place can be improved such as shutter response, AF accuracy& speed, a few more AF point etc.. those should be improved long before a few gimmick such as S007's digital DOF scale, to me, that never really worked with a few lens tested, I way prefer simple m glass DOF scale. I wish Leica can remove some of those BS features or at least release it until it is really worked.

 

Back to basic, improve things absolutely essential for shooting experience and a more reliable machine with 50+ pixels will be enough to sustain the niche market it required. People who love S will appreciate for its specialty.

 

For fashion, and portrait orientate usage, nothing beat bright huge OVF as for now.

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

Marc, If one prioritizes how the subject is seen (as I do), one could summarize the Leica range as having the best RF viewing (M), the best optical viewing (S), and the best EVF viewing (SL).

 

For me, as a non-pro photographer, the goal is a beautiful print of a worthy pic. That's been the case for over 40 years, film and diigital. The camera (and lens) has always been just one part of that workflow; the back end processing has been equally or more critical. But the most important tools remain between the ears... a good eye and good judgment. My collection of vintage prints (and books) also keeps me motivated to use those tools wisely.

 

Forgive my inner pedant, but I've noted your use of it's / its, which detracts from your otherwise articulate posts. The only time an apostrophe is warranted is for the contraction of 'it is' or 'it has' (it's). Otherwise, it's (it is) its... no apostrophe needed to show possession.

 

Jeff

Thanks Jeff ... the it, it's ... not its' thing is a hold-over bad habit from before my brain transplant. It drives my proof readers crazy. I know the feeling ... when people use "their" in place of "they're" it detracts from anything they are saying.  

Link to post
Share on other sites

Marc,

 

I think the important word here is WAS. "The S was a perfect answer to very defined needs based on a long history of MF use." ​ And that's no longer the case. Other systems now do all of that, except the dual shutter, which is rarely important for most. Leica had a niche but now that niche has moved and Leica aren't even IN the niche anymore. Mirror less in the new disruptive technology in photography and the S system has been caught as the most vulnerable player because the competitors are also fixed back systems in the same MP and sensor size category. In a world of larger cameras with interchangeable backs the S was lighter, cheaper and smaller while still having great optics and IQ. That's simply no longer the case. It's caught in no mans land now. Phase and H system camera will survive for a while because the sensors are larger and the MP counts are much higher but I don't see any new camera coming that doesn't have a mirror-less option.

 

Ironically the SL, while not perfect, seems to get this. It's jumping on the mirror-less bandwagon relatively early. It's the highest build quality in its class. The lenses are superb (so far). It's got the best EVF, battery life, weather sealing and usability of any mirrorless camera. And it's incredibly flexible with the use of adaptors. This combination of usability, flexibility and build quality do make it the 35mm system I have been looking for. For me mirrorless is now almost essential for the way I like to work and the SL offers that. It let's me use all the lenses I use every day (like Canon's TS lenses). And it is vastly different from the Sonys in usability, layout and build quality. Lastly Leica didn't have anything in this space so it made sense to enter it with a mirrorless camera. It also gave them the path they'd promised R lens owners for a long time.

 

With the S system what I think is that Leica currently have an opportunity. There's room for a third mirrorless miniMF player. Leica already have a full lens range (although a 300mm and a 22mm would be nice). *IF* Leica make a mirrorless camera that competes with the Fuji and Hasselblad AND they're more proactive about their service setup then they could leapfrog both in this new market. Removing the mirror from a type 007 will reduce the cost substantially. Then they automatically have the most lenses. The fastest lenses. Leaf shutter AND focal plane options. Then they need to market the sh*t out of it. Properly this time. Upgrade the zoom. Release a roadmap of f4.5 lenses. Work with someone to make a HSS option.

 

If I were Leica I would be releasing a fuzzy out of focus image of some new concept camera TODAY.

 

Or have the decency to tell us they've given up so we can cut our losses and move on.

 

Gordon

 

p.s. For most that article I think he has no idea but at least now I know why I don't subscribe to that rubbish......

"What is rarely important for most" ... was the primary reason I and others selected the S System.

 

If you work with OC strobe lighting (which most professional studio, fashion, and even many portrait/wedding photographers do), the S is still unique.

 

Neither of the new mirror-less MF cameras offer the combination of dual shutter combined with fast aperture lenses with the consistent level of optical quality of the S line-up.  Only Phase one has a nice selection of leaf-shutter lenses that work on a focal plane shutter camera, but P1 cameras are a different beast altogether and tend to be extremely expensive and more unwieldily to use.

 

All Hasselblad digital cameras are leaf-shutter only ... which, BTW, is an indication of how important leaf-shutter is for many professional and advanced amateurs. If leaf-shutter were not important, Hasselblad would have ceased to exist long ago. I had always hoped Hassey would offer a dual shutter dedicated digital camera, but they never did.

 

HSS strobes like Profoto offers for Nikon, Canon, Sony and a few others, is NOT a substitute for full power strobes used in concert with higher leaf-shutter speeds (I use Profoto B1s with a Profoto AIR transmitter for Sony HSS use on a Sony A7R-II ... and while nice, it is no S).  

 

Personally, I do NOT think it is important for Leica to jump on any bandwagon early like with the SL, but they did ... so it is what it is. I'm not particularly enamored of mirror-less (yet), and can wait for a S mirror-less while enjoying one of the best optical viewfinders ever available. I've found mirror-less to give me eye fatigue, and it is more difficult to swap between available light YSWYG and use of lighting.

 

 

  -Marc

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

Gordon, I think Leica zoom have copy variation. I tested one at Leica store SF, the performance is actually very good cross zoom range. After 70, it require at least f8 for corner, but that is what I will use for it if i shoot landscape. It doesn't have soft corner.

 

 

 

I can confirm that because currently I have two copies of the S zoom (long story) and they're very different. But neither are good above 70mm in the corners at infinity. I do intend to send them.

 

But really? For one of the most expensive zoom lenses ever made there really shouldn't be any copy variation at all.

 

Gordon

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

I find the discussions on the S, SL and M systems to be often quite amusing.  This is especially true when "reviewers" like Digloyd spout off.  I subscribed to his site for a couple of years and found over time, his reviews became hollow and simply not well founded.  He is obviously a Zeiss fan boy and quite possibly a paid Zeiss "reviewer".  Who knows and I simply don't care.  I voted with my wallet and stopped subscribing.  Photographers like myself who own(ed) S systems (S2, S006 and S007),  and SL, M and R systems find the cameras and lenses to be superb.  Yes, they do have issues and there is always room for improvement.  Often photographers get bogged down in the "technical" aspects rather than concentrating on the result...the Photograph!  The never ending BS about more mega pixels makes me laugh...many photographers don't understand the utility for certain size sensors in different cameras and niches they are designed to be utilized.  I most recently tried both Hassy, Fuji too.  For my work, both turned out to less than satisfactory.  I found my corporate clients and fine art buyers enjoyed and buy the images that come from Leica cameras the best.  So, for me, I sold the Hassy (X1D) and now Fuji and continue to use Leica cameras exclusively.  This move simplified the equipment usage and expanded usability with different M and SL lens adapters.  For people who like those other camera brands, great. I hope you create good photographs that satisfy you.  For me, Leica produces the tools that help me capture that moment in time with a level of simplicity, optical excellence and superb photographs.  Last, IMO it is the photograph that you create and what draws people to stop, look, think and feel; not your camera brand, lens or the size of your mega pixels...

Edited by LeicaR10
  • Like 3
Link to post
Share on other sites

Hello,

 

for the top of my head, Leica relatively open said that for them the speed of (available) MF sensors is not there yet to go into mirrorless for the S system.

 

Looking on how much emphasis they put on the 3.5 frames per second it might not only be the read-out speed for the EVF but simply also the frame rate itself. I would guess that Leica also asked their customers about what they prefer: speed or more megapixel. With Hasselblad having the large senors and high megapixels I assume there isn't too much to gain for them in the landscape area, rather more to lose in the portrait/fashion section where I think speed beats megapixels.

So, at some point they will move to mirrorless but properly not soon.

Edited by Unterwegs
Link to post
Share on other sites

It seems it isn't that Diglloyd and Ming Thein are paid hacks or maliciously prejudiced, but that their aesthetics aren't best served by Leica's house style--optics and processing and ergonomics as well as the larger "culture" of users. They care about meticulous composition and maximally faithful reproduction of detail. Emotions, subjectivity, serendipity and romance are to be suppressed. That preference partly maps onto their preference for contemporary Zeiss optics like the Otii and ZM 35/1.4.

Link to post
Share on other sites

It seems it isn't that Diglloyd and Ming Thein are paid hacks or maliciously prejudiced, but that their aesthetics aren't best served by Leica's house style--optics and processing and ergonomics as well as the larger "culture" of users. They care about meticulous composition and maximally faithful reproduction of detail. Emotions, subjectivity, serendipity and romance are to be suppressed. That preference partly maps onto their preference for contemporary Zeiss optics like the Otii and ZM 35/1.4.

Leica' S glass will compete well with any top dog out there. Though not f1.4 speed in 35format. I actually mostly agree with Lloyd about S AF. Nowadays in field, I always check barrel location whenever I shoot landscape close to infinity, it mostly work, but sometime it will still miss depend on subject.

 

I don't remember Ming said anything bad about S.

 

They seems put heavy weight to sharpness only and seldom talk about lens rendering though which I feel S glass really shine here.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...