Mike51 Posted January 24, 2017 Share #1 Posted January 24, 2017 Advertisement (gone after registration) I might have missed something in reading all the M10 reviews etc, but I've encountered a behaviour (preset?) applied to M10 files on import into Lightroom (and examined in the Deveop module) that's come as unexpected. It appears that noise reduction is applied to all files being imported into lightroom. Base 100 ISO is given a '5' adjustment and that adjustment increases the greater is the ISO value of the imported file. I can see the following noise reduction being applied (first figure is ISO value and second figure is amount of NR).... 100 : 5 200 : 5 400 : 10 800 : 10 1600 : 20 This is based on shots I took this morning and, as I wasn't expecting this behaviour, I didn't take shots throughout the ISO range of the M10. However, there is obviously an escalation of NR being applied as the ISO values are raised. The reason I point this out is that I find it slightly (or maybe greatly!) irritating that NR is being applied automatically. It's an adjustment that I want to make...not the 'invisible hand'. Yes, I know that I could create a preset that is applied on import and puts NR back to zero, but I shouldn't have to be forced into a work around. Apologies if this is already a known behaviour. But if it is, I'd welcome any insights into why this was deemed to be a good thing (other than 'protecting' the less experienced Lightroom users from seeing 'noise'). Additionally, Lens Correction 'Profile' is applied in Lightroom Develop module. And, that's with the boxes ticked for 'Remove Chromatic Aberration' and 'Enable Profile Corrections'. However, that auto behaviour doesn't trouble me. That all reads a bit 'grumpy'....not intended. I've loved playing with the M10 today. After an M9 and then a M240, things have just got better. Thoughts? Mike. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted January 24, 2017 Posted January 24, 2017 Hi Mike51, Take a look here Lightroom Noise Reduction and M10. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
digitalfx Posted January 24, 2017 Share #2 Posted January 24, 2017 Which version of LR? Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike51 Posted January 24, 2017 Author Share #3 Posted January 24, 2017 CC 2015.8 Mike. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
digitalfx Posted January 24, 2017 Share #4 Posted January 24, 2017 CC 2015.8 Mike. isn't there a newer version? The latest has profile for M10 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike51 Posted January 24, 2017 Author Share #5 Posted January 24, 2017 No newer version. CC app always shows if there is an update (and I just double checked). CC 2015.8 is the latest. Furthermore, this version recognises it's a file from an M10! Mike. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
digitalfx Posted January 24, 2017 Share #6 Posted January 24, 2017 We should be receiving an updated FW in a few weeks...hopefully the profile will be updated. I just updated to LR v6.8, and noticed the Lens profiles are checked by default now. Hopefully they turn that off. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike51 Posted January 24, 2017 Author Share #7 Posted January 24, 2017 Advertisement (gone after registration) Thanks. I'll relax and keep my fingers crossed. Mike. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandymc Posted January 24, 2017 Share #8 Posted January 24, 2017 (edited) Yes, the variation by ISO is part of the Lightroom settings that are inserted into some (most?) M10 DNGs - see the separate thread. Edited January 24, 2017 by sandymc Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike51 Posted January 24, 2017 Author Share #9 Posted January 24, 2017 Thanks sandymc. All useful. It's hard work following every thread all the time! Mike. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
adan Posted January 24, 2017 Share #10 Posted January 24, 2017 In Adobe Camera Raw, one can vary settings like NR or lens corrections (or practically anything else), and then save them as "new Camera Raw defaults". And then those become the settings used as default (per camera type) for all pictures made with a certain camera model (e.g. M9, or M240, or M10). Is that option to "save" one's own default settings to override Adobe's factory default settings not available in LR? (I don't use LR, just Photoshop + ACR). (Actually, it appears it is available. Here's an example going the other direction (forcing ISO-aware NR as the default behavior, rather than turning it off: https://forums.adobe.com/thread/2128540 ) BTW - using ACR 8.3, the default M10 settings are 0 luminance NR at any ISO, and 25 color NR at any ISO. And all the lens profiles/corrections/color aberrations settings are off or at zero. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike51 Posted January 24, 2017 Author Share #11 Posted January 24, 2017 Thanks adan. You can apply a new default in Lightroom. That's what I meant when I mentioned that I might have to create a preset that automatically applies on import into Lightroom. Interesting to hear what happens with ACR 8.3. Mike. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramarren Posted January 24, 2017 Share #12 Posted January 24, 2017 I don't know, Mike. It seems to me that Leica has incorporated into the M10 DNG data that is used by Lightroom to automate a lot of what I ordinarily have to do manually on a frame by frame basis when I'm rendering my work. Why is this something to be irritated about? The way I work my rendering is to import a session's worth of photos, rough out to approximate starting point in the Library grid view using Quick Develop so that brightness, contrast, and color temperature seems about right, and then do my sorting/grading to figure out which exposures are worth working on. Once I have that subset defined, I look at each one critically and see what it might need. If the defaults of noise reduction, etc, are not pleasing, I reset to the defaults and then apply one of my user presets to see what I get on a virtual copy. Why be irritated if the default noise settings are stepped up in same approximate way I'd have to do by hand anyway? It seems to me a time savings. You can always zero out all parameters and get to the base data ... I'm usually not so interested in the base data, I want to get to the 'near finished rendering' quickly. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
scott kirkpatrick Posted January 24, 2017 Share #13 Posted January 24, 2017 If a new firmware appears in a few more weeks, as seems to be Leica's usual practice, then it's too early to do anything besides observe and report things that seem worth fixing quickly. What I am looking out for is signs that the DNG structure is "baked into LightRoom" rather than carrying corrections that can be applied by the software of the user's choice. That's because I use Capture One, not LightRoom, but I think it should be a concern for many others as well. scott 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
adan Posted January 24, 2017 Share #14 Posted January 24, 2017 I always create a new master "developing" preset for every new camera type anyway - necessary if you create a custom color profile/calibration (which I also always do) and want to save that to automatically apply to every new image. Luminance NR zero, Color NR default reduced to 5 or zero, sharpening zero (I prefer PhotoShop's filter options); WB set to a custom midday sunlight setting measured off a gray card (not "Auto" or "As shot"); CA/lens profiles/lens corrections all OFF; global saturation and vibrance, etc. etc. Whatever will apply to the vast majority of my pictures. Everything in this list - I make a command decision of what each default setting should be (sometimes zeroed out, sometimes matching Adobe's regular default.) Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Then adjust as needed - per picture - for: WB, profile (yellow light needs a different profile than daylight), color NR for higher ISOs (Luminance NR = lost detail: I never use it!!), exposure tweaks. To borrow from Humpty Dumpty in Alice Through the Looking Glass - "The question is, which is to be master - you or the software?" I figured out years ago that when it comes to MY pictures, I'm smarter than Adobe's engineers, most of the time.... 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Then adjust as needed - per picture - for: WB, profile (yellow light needs a different profile than daylight), color NR for higher ISOs (Luminance NR = lost detail: I never use it!!), exposure tweaks. To borrow from Humpty Dumpty in Alice Through the Looking Glass - "The question is, which is to be master - you or the software?" I figured out years ago that when it comes to MY pictures, I'm smarter than Adobe's engineers, most of the time.... ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/268629-lightroom-noise-reduction-and-m10/?do=findComment&comment=3195864'>More sharing options...
hmathias Posted January 24, 2017 Share #15 Posted January 24, 2017 If a new firmware appears in a few more weeks, as seems to be Leica's usual practice, then it's too early to do anything besides observe and report things that seem worth fixing quickly. What I am looking out for is signs that the DNG structure is "baked into LightRoom" rather than carrying corrections that can be applied by the software of the user's choice. That's because I use Capture One, not LightRoom, but I think it should be a concern for many others as well. scott I use Capture One also. Have they done anything about the M 10 yet, do you know? Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike51 Posted January 24, 2017 Author Share #16 Posted January 24, 2017 Good advice ramarren ..... I'll relax about it. As you will appreciate, over time you develop 'muscle memory' when using the mouse wheel on the sliders. I shouldn't complain about having to use up an additional nano second to look at where the slider has been set. And, I can see how your workflow helps. Mike. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramarren Posted January 24, 2017 Share #17 Posted January 24, 2017 If a new firmware appears in a few more weeks, as seems to be Leica's usual practice, then it's too early to do anything besides observe and report things that seem worth fixing quickly. What I am looking out for is signs that the DNG structure is "baked into LightRoom" rather than carrying corrections that can be applied by the software of the user's choice. That's because I use Capture One, not LightRoom, but I think it should be a concern for many others as well. I was unaware that anyone other than Adobe offered a user interface that allowed user-customized camera calibration profiles to be added to their raw processing engine. ?? As far as I know, any camera calibration profiles for Capture One have to come from Phase One; same for rendering presets. This is one of the values provided by XMP. Of course, Leica has had a tight relationship with Adobe for at least the past decade, given that they for the majority of that time included a key for Lightroom as part of most of their product offerings. It's kind of natural that they would offer the most detailed support for Adobe image processing software on that basis. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
scott kirkpatrick Posted January 24, 2017 Share #18 Posted January 24, 2017 I use Capture One also. Have they done anything about the M 10 yet, do you know? You can develop the M10's files in Capture One, but I don't think there are any lens-specific profiles there yet. Certainly there is no distortion or LCA correction, which LightRoom does apply if you don't override it, as Godfrey is doing and as Sean Reid recommends. I'll ask. scott 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
scott kirkpatrick Posted January 24, 2017 Share #19 Posted January 24, 2017 (edited) I was unaware that anyone other than Adobe offered a user interface that allowed user-customized camera calibration profiles to be added to their raw processing engine. ?? As far as I know, any camera calibration profiles for Capture One have to come from Phase One; same for rendering presets. This is one of the values provided by XMP. Of course, Leica has had a tight relationship with Adobe for at least the past decade, given that they for the majority of that time included a key for Lightroom as part of most of their product offerings. It's kind of natural that they would offer the most detailed support for Adobe image processing software on that basis. Sandy knows more about this than I do, but at least some of the corrections that Leica has developed to improve images at the edges after the RGB data is developed can be expressed in standard forms, available to all parties. Instead, this seems to be done as calls to software specific to Adobe's products. That's what I am concerned about. The SL does its lens profiles in an open fashion, using the facilities in the DNG files. It seems the M10 does not. Maybe they can do a better job, but I doubt that we will ever get the full story. It may also eventually be the case that Capture One can do a better job than Adobe, as their tools are more flexible, but it will cost them some time and effort to get there independently. scott Edited January 24, 2017 by scott kirkpatrick Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandymc Posted January 24, 2017 Share #20 Posted January 24, 2017 Sandy knows more about this than I do, but at least some of the corrections that Leica has developed to improve images at the edges after the RGB data is developed can be expressed in standard forms, available to all parties. Instead, this seems to be done as calls to software specific to Adobe's products. That's what I am concerned about. The SL does its lens profiles in an open fashion, using the facilities in the DNG files. It seems the M10 does not. Maybe they can do a better job, but I doubt that we will ever get the full story. It may also eventually be the case that Capture One can do a better job than Adobe, as their tools are more flexible, but it will cost them some time and effort to get there independently. scott The lens profiles that the M10 DNG refer to are in LCP format, which is documented, so if Phase One wanted to us them, they could. Probably however, Phase One will prefer to do their own thing. Sandy 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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