Rambot-M Posted January 23, 2017 Share #1 Posted January 23, 2017 Advertisement (gone after registration) I have ordered a black Leica M10 and have not received it yet. I also got a 2nd hand previous version 28mm summicron ASPH. I have read a lot of reviews that suggest this lens might have some issues with digital sensors like corner softness wide open. http://macfilos.com/photo/2016/5/24/leica-28mm-f2-summicron-asph-a-comparative-test This article by Jonathan Slack mentions that due to the presence of a special micro-lens design, special firmware profiles and a thinner cover glass over sensor in the M240, the performance of this lens with the newer iteration with M240 is very similar. I am not sure if this is the same with M10 or not. I wanted to know if any of you who have already received their M10, have tried it with this version of 28mm? Could you please provide your feed back on the same? Thanks in advance! 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted January 23, 2017 Posted January 23, 2017 Hi Rambot-M, Take a look here What to expect with the combination of Leica M10 and older version 28mm Summicron ASPH (Version 11604)?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
Rambot-M Posted January 23, 2017 Author Share #2 Posted January 23, 2017 I think i should have waited a few days longer before posting this question. I guess not many people have got their M10 yet. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmahto Posted January 23, 2017 Share #3 Posted January 23, 2017 I think i should have waited a few days longer before posting this question. I guess not many people have got their M10 yet. You are correct in noting (according to Jono) that M240 performs well with prev 28cron ASPH. This is my primary lens on M240. I will be surprised if there is a regression in performance of this lens on M10. M10, being the flag bearer of M series has to work well with all M lenses and I will assume equal or better performance (compared to M240) with existing M lenses. I think your concern is unwarranted. And welcome to the forum. 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rambot-M Posted January 23, 2017 Author Share #4 Posted January 23, 2017 You are correct in noting (according to Jono) that M240 performs well with prev 28cron ASPH. This is my primary lens on M240. I will be surprised if there is a regression in performance of this lens on M10. M10, being the flag bearer of M series has to work well with all M lenses and I will assume equal or better performance (compared to M240) with existing M lenses. I think your concern is unwarranted. And welcome to the forum. Thank you.. I will be able to answer this only after i receive my camera. But in the meanwhile, if anybody do get a chance to try it out, please give a shout. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tom0511 Posted January 23, 2017 Share #5 Posted January 23, 2017 I know Jono was not so convinced about the older 28/2.0 on digital sensor, for my part I have been quite happy with the 28/2.0asph. I find the results have good IQ but maybe not as supersharp and contrasty like some other lenses. But smoother and more "organic" whatever this means. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rambot-M Posted January 24, 2017 Author Share #6 Posted January 24, 2017 I found this link in this thread. Here Leica engineers state clearly that like M240, the M10 also features micro-lenses over the sensor. So, the general design has not changed as much as the sensor itself. Some excerpts from the link. "The sensor of the M ( Typ 240) has special micro-lenses to ensure high image quality at both small and large angles of incident light. Is this also true for the sensor of the M10? Henning Rafflenbeul: The M10’s sensor also features micro-lenses that have been specifically optimised for the optical characteristics of M lenses. This continues to ensure the best image quality within the M-lenses’ compact design. Jesko von Oeynhausen: Also, side effects such as vignetting or colour shifts on the edges of the image have been reduced even further with the sensor of the M10." This is good... 28mm Summicron ASPH V1 performance might not take a hit on M10 after-all. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
steppenw0lf Posted January 27, 2017 Share #7 Posted January 27, 2017 (edited) Advertisement (gone after registration) In a comparison it is always necessary to say THIS is better than THAT. (You need two items to compare them.) I see that they have avoided this sort of precision. They only say it is better ..... than what ? (M9, M240, M262, M246, Q, SL ?) Too bad that the writer/interviewer did not ask a bit more precisely, what they were referring to. We know that several lenses were refreshed lately for the future sensors. Was this an unnecessary refresh ? That would have been an interesting (and logical) follow-on question. Edited January 27, 2017 by steppenw0lf 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramarren Posted January 27, 2017 Share #8 Posted January 27, 2017 In a comparison it is always necessary to say THIS is better than THAT. (You need two items to compare them.) I see that they have avoided this sort of precision. They only say it is better ..... than what ? (M9, M240, M262, M246, Q, SL ?) Too bad that the writer/interviewer did not ask a bit more precisely, what they were referring to. We know that several lenses were refreshed lately for the future sensors. Was this an unnecessary refresh ? That would have been an interesting (and logical) follow-on question. It's pretty obvious from the excerpts presented that they are comparing the typ 240 sensor with the M10 sensor. The fact that Leica updated a few lenses to improve their performance with digital sensors does not obviate an effort to improve the sensor to lens match for older, existing lenses. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Posted January 27, 2017 Share #9 Posted January 27, 2017 I owned both lenses but, unfortunately I traded my older version in on my new M10. The problem with the older lens was smearing of the corners and some folks reported some color problems in the corners. I found the newer version did not smear in the corners (sharp corners), was more contrary, and seemed sharper. The 28 Summicron (new) was the first lens I tried on the new M10 and the corner performance is excellent. Color in the corners seems fine. I know this doesn't address your question about the older 28 Summicron. I would only guess it will be as good or better on the new M10. I'm sure the new M10 was optimized for the new Summicron. And, Leica has stated that the sensor has been optimized for older lenses as well. So, expect smearing and less contrast. By the way, I liked the old version fine. Hope this helps? Rick 5 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dkmoore Posted January 27, 2017 Share #10 Posted January 27, 2017 I currently own and use the 28 V1 on the M10 and it looks the same as on the M240. If I have time this weekend I will try to post examples. Regardless, the 28 Cron V1 is an excellent performer. Most of the sharpness differences between the two versions is due to the flatter field of the V2. Many folks that reviewed the new version said the gains from the V1 are minimal. Rick is right that the corners are better on the V2 but again I think this has to do with the image plane being flatter. Enjoy the lens! I think you made a good purchase. 5 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rambot-M Posted January 27, 2017 Author Share #11 Posted January 27, 2017 Thank you both for your responses. My choice of going for V1 was mostly $ related. If the difference between V1 and V2 is not significant, it has fine with me. Stopping down 1 stop should help as well i think. I currently own and use the 28 V1 on the M10 and it looks the same as on the M240. If I have time this weekend I will try to post examples. Regardless, the 28 Cron V1 is an excellent performer. Most of the sharpness differences between the two versions is due to the flatter field of the V2. Many folks that reviewed the new version said the gains from the V1 are minimal. Rick is right that the corners are better on the V2 but again I think this has to do with the image plane being flatter. Enjoy the lens! I think you made a good purchase. I owned both lenses but, unfortunately I traded my older version in on my new M10. The problem with the older lens was smearing of the corners and some folks reported some color problems in the corners. I found the newer version did not smear in the corners (sharp corners), was more contrary, and seemed sharper. The 28 Summicron (new) was the first lens I tried on the new M10 and the corner performance is excellent. Color in the corners seems fine. I know this doesn't address your question about the older 28 Summicron. I would only guess it will be as good or better on the new M10. I'm sure the new M10 was optimized for the new Summicron. And, Leica has stated that the sensor has been optimized for older lenses as well. So, expect smearing and less contrast. By the way, I liked the old version fine. Hope this helps? Rick dkmoore, if you could please share some samples, that would be great! Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rambot-M Posted January 31, 2017 Author Share #12 Posted January 31, 2017 dkmoore, Hope you got some photos to share with us? Thanks, Abhiram Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Posted January 31, 2017 Share #13 Posted January 31, 2017 (edited) Here is the old thread from last year that shows the comparison of the edge smearing of the old and new 28 Summicron on the M240. FWIW. http://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/258071-leica-28mm-summicron-asph-2016-11672-owners-thread/?p=3037844 Rick Edited January 31, 2017 by Rick Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
uhoh7 Posted January 31, 2017 Share #14 Posted January 31, 2017 (edited) 28 cron original is superb on digital. Ron knows it really well on 240. It is completely off the hook on M9. L1056064 by unoh7, 28 cron WO. Note edge on left. The plane of focus I believe is actually inverted a tad WO. Ron can confirm that. I don't know about the new one. The old one is the strongest 28 ever made untill the otus. It is certainly stronger than the Lux. It also has a very nice curve out to the edge without the tricky dips you see in FLE and 50 Lux. For me corners are more a landscape issue, and I don't shoot many of those at F/2. The cron on M9 has very nice character all the way to F/11. White Rocks by unoh7, on Flickr There have been copy issues on the new version, so reports have varied. Lloyd's had a pronounced focus shift. Ron had a poor copy also. It's a very complex build and the basics have not changed in the formula. However the lens is different on M9 and 240. So how it will be on M10 is very interesting question. I have a bunch of lenses. This is my favorite. L1050986-2 by unoh7, on Flickr Dreamin by unoh7, on Flickr Red Morning by unoh7, on Flickr one last WO: L1047971 by unoh7, on Flickr The Lux is very nice, especially for a shot like that one. But it's big, very expensive, and certainly not more crisp. All these on M9. Edited January 31, 2017 by uhoh7 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rambot-M Posted January 31, 2017 Author Share #15 Posted January 31, 2017 Thanks to both of you for taking time and replying. It looks like this lens has been really good for use with M9 and M240. This was the reason why i bought it in the first place [] Now if we can get someone to confirm that its performance has not deteriorated on the M10, that would be great! 28 cron original is superb on digital. Ron knows it really well on 240. It is completely off the hook on M9. L1056064 by unoh7, 28 cron WO. Note edge on left. The plane of focus I believe is actually inverted a tad WO. Ron can confirm that. I don't know about the new one. The old one is the strongest 28 ever made untill the otus. It is certainly stronger than the Lux. It also has a very nice curve out to the edge without the tricky dips you see in FLE and 50 Lux. For me corners are more a landscape issue, and I don't shoot many of those at F/2. The cron on M9 has very nice character all the way to F/11. White Rocks by unoh7, on Flickr There have been copy issues on the new version, so reports have varied. Lloyd's had a pronounced focus shift. Ron had a poor copy also. It's a very complex build and the basics have not changed in the formula. However the lens is different on M9 and 240. So how it will be on M10 is very interesting question. I have a bunch of lenses. This is my favorite. L1050986-2 by unoh7, on FlickrDreamin by unoh7, on FlickrRed Morning by unoh7, on Flickrone last WO:L1047971 by unoh7, on FlickrThe Lux is very nice, especially for a shot like that one. But it's big, very expensive, and certainly not more crisp. All these on M9. Here is the old thread from last year that shows the comparison of the edge smearing of the old and new 28 Summicron on the M240. FWIW. http://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/258071-leica-28mm-summicron-asph-2016-11672-owners-thread/?p=3037844 Rick Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Posted January 31, 2017 Share #16 Posted January 31, 2017 Thanks to both of you for taking time and replying. It looks like this lens has been really good for use with M9 and M240. This was the reason why i bought it in the first place [ ] Now if we can get someone to confirm that its performance has not deteriorated on the M10, that would be great! You have misinterpreted what I posted in my linked post. The old 28 Summicron is not "really good" on the M9 or the M240. It has terrible edge and mid-field performance. Lower contrast and less vivid color. That is why it was redesigned. I stated it was fine on the M240. Fine doesn't not mean really good. As uhoh7 posted, it has to be stopped down to f11-f16 to become fine on the M240 or M9. If, you are ok shooting at these stopped down apertures why not get the Elmarit? Rick Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rambot-M Posted January 31, 2017 Author Share #17 Posted January 31, 2017 I got this 2nd hand. Faster aperture, although have problems like you elaborated, will still help in low light shooting. You have misinterpreted what I posted in my linked post. The old 28 Summicron is not "really good" on the M9 or the M240. It has terrible edge and mid-field performance. Lower contrast and less vivid color. That is why it was redesigned. I stated it was fine on the M240. Fine doesn't not mean really good. As uhoh7 posted, it has to be stopped down to f11-f16 to become fine on the M240 or M9. If, you are ok shooting at these stopped down apertures why not get the Elmarit? Rick Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dkmoore Posted January 31, 2017 Share #18 Posted January 31, 2017 dkmoore, Hope you got some photos to share with us? Thanks, Abhiram Hi Abhiram, Sorry for the delay. I went out this weekend but ended up only using the 50 Lux. Will make sure to use the 28 Cron specifically on the M10 this weekend and will share some pics by Sunday. D Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dkmoore Posted February 1, 2017 Share #19 Posted February 1, 2017 So I have a little bit of a different picture to paint of the 28 cron, V1. Many folks use different lenses for different purposes. If you are a street shooter you may love the V1 28 cron because of the field curvature. The V1 tends to create a 3D effect with certain subjects (people) and has more character in some senses. Character being flaws. So to Rick's point, if you are shooting landscapes or architecture that require true corner to corner sharpness then the V2 would be worth the upgrade as it certainly does better in the corners. However, the V1 will do an excellent job. In my experience I wouldn't call it "terrible edge and mid-field" performance but that is all subjective. Until the new V2 was announced the V1 was one of the best semi-wide fast lenses available and for good reason. Hopefully I didn't confuse matters more but rest assured, it is an excellent lens and it seems money is a consideration, I think you will be plenty happy. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
uhoh7 Posted February 1, 2017 Share #20 Posted February 1, 2017 (edited) So to Rick's point, if you are shooting landscapes or architecture that require true corner to corner sharpness then the V2 would be worth the upgrade as it certainly does better in the corners. I don't see many landscapes or architecture shooting at F/2. Edges and corners on V1 are great at the normal apertures. Few lenses have a perfectly flat field at F/2 Tell me a better DSLR 28 technically than the 28 cron v1 ? Rick is adamant the new version is far better than the old. I only have the old. You can see how it works. He may well be right. It's an extra 2k. The old one is fantastic to me, and I have quite a few lenses to compare it to. I shoot many landscapes, so edges are important. 28 cron v1 has great edges. As Puts describes in his review, and is normal, they are best at 5.6 and F/8. In fact the cron seems to behave just as he describes for me on M9. Karbe's idea we should be shooting WO always? Whatever. I guess if you hate DOF, it's a great idea. LOL My advice would be to ignore what everyone "says". My fulls are right on flickr. You can see the edges perfectly well. They are good enough for you or they are not. In the end it's best to be your own judge. Listen, sure so you can see what different people like and use. Then use your own judgement. Never go by single examples, such as the "test" shots in the other thread. The 28 cron v1 is a famous lens on the M9, no matter what any one here says, loved by alot of fantastic photographers. Some have said it's their favorite lens period. Maybe it's that way for you, maybe not. Let your eyes tell you in real images. If you don't like the shot, you should be skeptical about relying on what it tells you, look further. Here is a test album and you can see the v1 as Puts says, starts to get good at f/4 infinity on the edge and excellent at 5.6 and fantastic at f/8 https://flic.kr/s/aHsku8ZfrL That's what I would expect. Let's see some good true infinity samples from the new one. Further, let's see it in real action. The we can see if there are trade offs or it's just 2 thousand bucks better Edited February 1, 2017 by uhoh7 5 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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