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M10 Monochrom ??


bjdejong

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Why would anyone with an M9M or a M246 replace their camera for an M10M?

 

The key reasons for me to be in the market for an M10M are:

 

- I expect that the M10M will have a very significant improved dynamic range compared to my MM. This will hugely pay off in available light / low light conditions.

- I expect that the M10M will not have the issue of needing significant time to write DNG files to an SD card after a few shots

- I expect an improved finder

 

That would do it for me.

 

Barend Jan 

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The key reasons for me to be in the market for an M10M are:

 

- I expect that the M10M will have a very significant improved dynamic range compared to my MM. This will hugely pay off in available light / low light conditions.

- I expect that the M10M will not have the issue of needing significant time to write DNG files to an SD card after a few shots

- I expect an improved finder

 

That would do it for me.

 

Barend Jan 

 

Certainly good reasons you mention. My response was a bit tongue in cheek. I think my point was that M9M is such a beloved camera with true character hence the owners adore it so much, and the M246 is already such a capable camera as long as one takes care not to blow out the highlights. I happen to have the M246 myself and will never part with it.

If you go for the new M10M you will certainly end up with a fantastically capable camera and I'm sure it will be better than its predecessors. But I'm not certain it makes financially sense to replace cameras as good as the M9M/M246 with a new one. Not for me at least as I can develop my skills in the future well within the camera's technical possibilities.

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Certainly good reasons you mention. My response was a bit tongue in cheek. I think my point was that M9M is such a beloved camera with true character hence the owners adore it so much, and the M246 is already such a capable camera as long as one takes care not to blow out the highlights. I happen to have the M246 myself and will never part with it.

If you go for the new M10M you will certainly end up with a fantastically capable camera and I'm sure it will be better than its predecessors. But I'm not certain it makes financially sense to replace cameras as good as the M9M/M246 with a new one. Not for me at least as I can develop my skills in the future well within the camera's technical possibilities.

 

I guess that is true for many things discussed on this forum ;)

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That is not replacing but adding to a collection.

So after you add M10-M in round 2019 you can wait to add M11-M three/four years later, and so on.

 

It would be interesting to hear your comparison of M9M and M246 and what do you expect from M10M you don't already have in current models, except thinner body and dedicated ISO dial.

 

My Monochrom history is something like this, I was intrigued with M9M from the outset but found M9 buggy in use so expected same problems, and this is before sensor corrosion problems became common knowledge (thankfully resolved and credit to Leica). Embraced both M240 and M246 with open arms as they become available, key selling point was improved optical RF and stable handling of pretty much any SD card.

 

Well, I'm anything but a collector.  But, yeah, I agree it sure looks that way.

 

When the original Monochrom was announced in May of 2012, I was deeply disappointed.  I had heard the rumors of a black-and-white-only camera during the winter and spring, of course.  I discounted them, believing such a self-limited camera to be a nutty idea.  

 

When the "nutty idea" became reality, I was disappointed because the camera I really wanted was the M10.  I loved my M9 and was looking forward to its successor.

 

Three months later, when the first shipment of Monochroms hit North America, almost on a whim I called my local dealer and asked if they had any.  I expected, of course, a quick "no."  To my surprise, the fellow came back a moment later and said, "yeah, as a matter of fact we do have one."

 

Stunned, I thought for a few quick seconds, then told him "Hold it for me.  I'll be there in an hour."

 

Within a few minutes of getting it home - and a quick trip to my town's "old town" section for a quick get acquainted shoot - I had fallen in love with the "nutty idea."  And as the weeks turned into months, I marveled at this special camera.

 

The sidebar is that a month after I picked up that Monochrom, Leica announced the camera I had been longing for... the M9 replacement.  I dutifully put my name on the list for the new M240, but honestly, when it came in the following spring I wasn't excited at all - the only Leica I've ever felt 'meh' about.  It wasn't that it wasn't a great camera - it clearly was.  But the MM had completely and truly won my heart.  I have never before or since so loved a camera.

 

I did, of course, acknowledge the improvements in the M240.  I quickly concluded that the MM imagery in the M240-style body would be just about the perfect camera.  So when the M246 was announced there wasn't any question that it was a must-have.  The rational thing to do was to sell my original MM.  But how do you sell something you have loved so deeply?

 

So that's how I ended up with both the MM and the M246.

 

The two are different.  The M246 is clearly a nicer camera (the M9/MM generation seems positively "coarse" when compared to the refinement of the M240/M-246 generation).  But the original MM... there's something special about those files that even the M-246 doesn't quite have.  I wish I could describe it better, but I can't.  The best I can come up with is that the MM files have an organic quality that I've not seen in anything else.

 

I love both Monochrom versions.  I use them both.

 

My expectation of an M10-M is that it will have stupidly-high ISO capability.  That'll probably be its calling card.  And it'll be the thing that least interests me.  A Noctilux on either the MM or M-246 already gives me the ability to shoot in pretty much any kind of light.  More ISO will be interesting, but is not really needed.

 

So why buy it?  All the other things... starting with the thinner bodies.  I shot film Leicas for years before the M8 came along.  The M10 - and the hoped-for M10-M - feel very much like coming home.

 

I'll probably sell the M-246 when the M10-M arrives.  Just like I'm currently selling my M-240 with the imminent arrival of the M10.

 

Hope that helps...

Edited by Jager
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And if further rationalizing is needed, low base ISO will set an M10M apart...

I live and shoot mostly in U.K., lowest ISO of M246 (and probably M9M) is more than adequate on the typically bright day, if i wanted some really low ISO I would probably go for Ilford Pan (50 ISO) with better latitude than digital sensor ;-)

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There is an interview with Stefan Daniel in David Farkas's Red Dot Forum that makes clear there will be an M10 Monochrom at some point. http://www.reddotforum.com/content/2017/02/the-leica-m10-a-discussion-with-stefan-daniel-and-jesko-von-oeynhausen

 

Like Jeff, I upgraded from the M9 Monochrom to the Monochrom 246, and the reason I did so was to be able to use the EVF with a Noctilux, as well as R lenses. I miss the original Monochrom, but the usability and flexibility of the upgrade was such that I've never regretted it.

 

Will I feel the need to upgrade to an M10 Monochrom? I don't know. It would be nice to be on the same battery system, etc. But my use of the Monochrom, specialty instrument that it is, may we'll be satisfied by what I have. But of course, once they announce it, I will likely salivate anew...

Edited by johnbuckley
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The upside of a theoretical M10 Monochrom is better LV / EVF functionality.  Using colored filters shifts focus - yellow negligible, red significantly.  I most use the red filter with landscapes and using the EVF is critical for managing focus shift.  But the M-246 is very limited -

 

1)  cannot move the magnification box around to check focus / sharpness before taking the shot

2)  LV / EVF use really needs to be via tripod because pre-shot delay / shutter cycle is awkward (my shots tend be to blurred)

3)  the EVF's slow frame rate = severe jello effect (another reason to use the tripod)

4)  EVF is low rez, so gauging focus accuracy is very difficult (without magnification)

 

The M10's EVF / LV functionality is better in terms of being able to move around the magnification box, but I don't know how responsive shutter cycle is (in LV/EVF mode).  I've tried taking portrait pictures using the EVF, but the lag time and shutter cycle cadence is awkward. Also, the composition options are extremely limited (person has to be dead center if want use EVF/LV magnification).

 

In theory I will upgrade when the new Monochrom rolls around, but we'll see how I feel at that time.  By then we'll know if the Leica M10 is a solid camera and manages heat well with sustained LV/EVF use. It can get quite hot in Texas in the summers and my first M-240 would shut down during EVF usage.  Subsequent firmware updates sorted that issue, but it was a bumpy start for the first year or so.  

 

So the EVF is my main motivation.  Frankly, I'd be smitten if Leica made a Monochrom SL.  Since the majority of my monochrome shooting is via colored filters, an EVF based monochrome camera would make more sense for me.

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If they could tweak the base ISO down to say 100 or even 64, I think that a M10M would be worth having. I own the M246 and it's a brilliant camera, the only drawback is the quite high base ISO. Since I mostly use it for indoor shooting and outdoor during the all grey autumn/winter here in the south of Sweden I mostly don't have any problem with the base ISO, but I guess that if you live in a little sunnier place (and also here in the summer) it can be a limiting factor. Other than that I guess the new M10M would be able to do something like 50000 ISO that looks like 8000 on the M246. Banding is of course also expected to be improved.

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As an M-P 240 owner, I am leaning toward the Monochrom typ 246; battery compatibility between the two cameras makes a strong argument for the 246 in my view. 

 

We are hearing that the image quality of the M10 is not significantly better than the M-P 240 so I would expect more of the same when the M10M arrives. 

 

As for ISO, the 246 has a maximum ISO of 25,000; that gives it a usable ISO of a little less than half that, which is plenty of ISO for my purposes, seeing that I do fairly well with the "hideously slow" M-P 240's ISO range. 

 

Some complain about the 240 platform's supposedly portly build, which is not an annoyance to me.  I do like the M10's three button control design, though.  Clean and simple is always welcome, although I have never thought of the M-P 240's back panel layout as cluttered. 

 

Still, the M10's new sensor and Maestro II processor are attractive upgrades as is the fact that the vile movie mode has at long last gone away.  Those upgrades are enough to make the M10M a temptation that may be worth waiting for - but then I remember the battery situation.  When traveling with both bodies, one would be saddled with two chargers and 3 or 4 batteries for each camera.  Not desirable in the least.

 

At times, the red dot is truly a cruel mistress.  Oh, the things we endure for love...

Edited by Carlos Danger
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If they could tweak the base ISO down to say 100 or even 64, I think that a M10M would be worth having. 

 

When the original (M9) Monochrom was released many were concerned with its base ISO of 320, which complicated shooting in bright light.  The accepted solution was neutral density filters.  I got a set for my lenses and all was well.

Edited by Luke_Miller
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The main difference between the MM1 and the 246, ( and I guess the M10M when it arrives ), is the type of sensor. The MM1 has a CCD sensor, the others have CMOS sensors. 

I find that I do prefer the look of a CCD, ( I did "trial" a 246 but didn't like the look compared with the MM1 ), and that's not only with the Leica, I have a digital cinema camera with a CCD sensor and despite it's disadvantages in terms of sensitivity and maybe DR too I find it's imagining so much truer to my eye than a CMOS sensor.

So that for me is the root of the MM1's "magic"........

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  • 10 months later...

I purchased both the first and second-generation monochrom cameras and currently use the second-generation black and white camera mostly for landscapes and to lesser degree portraits.  For the landscapes I make extensive use of the standard color filters.  Empirically I have never found black and white conversions of M9 or M240 images to have the tonal characteristics that I can achieve with their monochrome equivalents and color filters.  Many of my images are made with the 24mm 2.8 ASPH lens.  I now find myself traveling with the M246 equipped with a 24mm auxiliary viewfinder and the multipurpose grip to provide gps-based location tagging.  For color images I carry a M10 with the visoflex electronic viewfinder and use that finder both for gps-tagging and composition of my wide-angle images.  

 
For my combination of uses a straightforward Monochrome M10 without Bayer filter should offer several advantages over the M246:
A consistent user interface with the M10.
          Improved dynamic range and more than a half stop in high ISO capability
          Ability to use the visoflex viewfinder for:
                  Composition of wide-angle shots
                  GPS tagging
                  Live view focusing in lighting situations where the screen is not useable
 
If I could add one item to a wish list for a M10 Monochrom it would be to restore a DNG histogram capability similar to that on the generation one Monochrom.   
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  • 4 weeks later...

Love my MM1,but if a M10Mono comes out I will likely be a buyer. I like R lenses so the Visoflex would continue to help, the R-M adapter would also work on it and batteries would be common between my M10.

 

My biggest disappointment with the M246 (I eventually sold it and went back to the MM1) was no DNG histogram. Still today when the MM1 goes from jpeg histogram to DNG histogram I am truly amazed at the different look the histogram gives.  Yes, I am hoping for that feature inan M10Mono.

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