Guest Posted February 21, 2017 Share #41 Posted February 21, 2017 Advertisement (gone after registration) I have to say I cannot agree with you Steve, the trouble is for Leica to put all that video functionality into any of their present forms of the M's it still wouldn't be enough. To shoot good video you would need a high quality EVF and a orientable LCD wouldn't go amiss either. Then you'd need to have good I/O options such as HDMI and HS USB so that one could run external recorders and maybe bigger VF's with waveform and RGB parade. Larger, and in the case of the M10 much larger battery capacity to power all the extra "bits" that come along with serious video recording, external power input too……There's more of course, ( I've not even mentioned audio, that's a real dog's dinner on still cameras that "do" video ), but it takes a lot to make any camera that's primarily designed for stills work to function well in the video realm and to do all that in an M would take it away from it's core. Sure you don't need much or any of that stuff if all you're shooting is casual video, but again I can tell you from real experience that an iPhone is a much better option than any video empowered M right now. I worked a documentary a couple of months back where I was in a situation where the producer suddenly asked if we could "grab some video"….well I did with the 240 and a Q, but the video from the producer's iPhone 6 was a whole lot better than what the M&Q captured, also the sound recording from the cameras was unusable. The M is the best, bar none in my view, stills camera out there and it's reassuring to see the in the M10 Leica isn't trying to hybrid it with video. They should dump the video option in all future iterations of the M line if only because there's so many other camera manufacturers out there doing a whole lot better with more resources. And Jaap, sure I know the crop factor when you use M lenses on MFT cameras, you're right. I have that option with my M glass on the MFT cameras that I use for video but to be honest the MFT lenses that are built for MFT do a better all round job and many have IS built it too which helps such a lot with video work. I do however use my R glass with a Metabones Speedbooster on my MFT cameras and that does work well. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted February 21, 2017 Posted February 21, 2017 Hi Guest, Take a look here So how long before video capture functionality arrives?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
TDR Posted February 21, 2017 Share #42 Posted February 21, 2017 Based on what you are saying, maybe the D-Lux, which is four-thirds (what we used to call half-frame) would be better than trying to use the 240 for video. Do you have any sense of how well the SL does video? Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tsleica Posted February 21, 2017 Share #43 Posted February 21, 2017 M11 or M240 ver 2.0..will have video.. Leica has to keep upgrading..or will have nothing else to offer.. M10..is a bridge camera..for the purists.. But imo..that gets old after a few months..real old...as their customer base is as well.. And I don't think that is particularly a good long term business strategy.. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cp995 Posted February 21, 2017 Share #44 Posted February 21, 2017 (edited) M11 or M240 ver 2.0..will have video.. Leica has to keep upgrading..or will have nothing else to offer.. M10..is a bridge camera..for the purists... I think and hope, that THIS will not happen. M240 had Video (poor) implemented. In the meantime they announced the SL which is more usable for video then any RF camera may be (Size for cooling, EVF, etc.) It is a logical step that Leica removed this feature for the new M10; as no longer needed. (They asked their customer's regarding the usage of the video function) That means (my opinion): - Leica has not to upgrade the M10 - The M10 is NOT a bridge camera an we will not see a Leica M with video and/or build in EVF in the new near future. The Leica SL is a great opportunity for people searching for stuff like this! Edited February 21, 2017 by cp995 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Spencer Posted February 21, 2017 Share #45 Posted February 21, 2017 I have to say I cannot agree with you Steve, the trouble is for Leica to put all that video functionality into any of their present forms of the M's it still wouldn't be enough. To shoot good video you would need a high quality EVF and a orientable LCD wouldn't go amiss either. Then you'd need to have good I/O options such as HDMI and HS USB so that one could run external recorders and maybe bigger VF's with waveform and RGB parade. Larger, and in the case of the M10 much larger battery capacity to power all the extra "bits" that come along with serious video recording, external power input too……There's more of course, ( I've not even mentioned audio, that's a real dog's dinner on still cameras that "do" video ), but it takes a lot to make any camera that's primarily designed for stills work to function well in the video realm and to do all that in an M would take it away from it's core. Sure you don't need much or any of that stuff if all you're shooting is casual video, but again I can tell you from real experience that an iPhone is a much better option than any video empowered M right now. I worked a documentary a couple of months back where I was in a situation where the producer suddenly asked if we could "grab some video"….well I did with the 240 and a Q, but the video from the producer's iPhone 6 was a whole lot better than what the M&Q captured, also the sound recording from the cameras was unusable. The M is the best, bar none in my view, stills camera out there and it's reassuring to see the in the M10 Leica isn't trying to hybrid it with video. They should dump the video option in all future iterations of the M line if only because there's so many other camera manufacturers out there doing a whole lot better with more resources. And Jaap, sure I know the crop factor when you use M lenses on MFT cameras, you're right. I have that option with my M glass on the MFT cameras that I use for video but to be honest the MFT lenses that are built for MFT do a better all round job and many have IS built it too which helps such a lot with video work. I do however use my R glass with a Metabones Speedbooster on my MFT cameras and that does work well. Peter, I think we are more in agreement than disagreement. In a broad sense I think we both think the M240 had poor implementation of video and if Leica makes an M with video it needs to do a much better job. Where we might disagree is on what would be enough video capability for Leica to consider offering an M with video. For me, I would like any M to have at least internal recording capability that is HD with a mic in to bring decent sound and a headphone port to monitor sound. The HD needs to have 24, 25, 30 and 60 fps and there needs to be some sort of slog or similar to aid processing. This would require condensing the data and they would need to do this without wrecking the quality of the video. I would also like to decent control of the rolling shutter effect. To be really useful, however, the camera would need to also have HDMI output (perhaps you missed that I specified that), and would have to have excellent external video with a recorder. For external video I would expect 4K video with direct read out from the Super 35 portion of the sensor (this could work the same as on the SL), I would also like to see a full range of fps options, a couple of different log options, and minimal rolling shutter. To me that would be B+ video and would make it worth having on an M camera. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirk Mandeville Posted February 21, 2017 Share #46 Posted February 21, 2017 M11 or M240 ver 2.0..will have video..Leica has to keep upgrading..or will have nothing else to offer..M10..is a bridge camera..for the purists..But imo..that gets old after a few months..real old...as their customer base is as well..And I don't think that is particularly a good long term business strategy.. I don't think the M11 will have video. Leica have drawn a line in the sand in terms of product development moving forward, and I expect they will stick to it. However, this certainly does not preclude them from offering an M240 ver. 2.0 with video, just as it doesn't preclude them from offering an M10 Monochrome. And then there's the SL... There are more stills photography purists out there than you think, and plenty of them are younger. The initial demand for the M10 is a pretty good indication that they know their market well and are executing a perfectly reasonable business strategy. From what I have seen on various forums and Facebook groups, the people that have the M10 absolutely love it, and the people still on a waiting list are highly anticipating its arrival. The M10 isn't so much a bridge camera as a return to the roots of the M platform. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirk Mandeville Posted February 21, 2017 Share #47 Posted February 21, 2017 Advertisement (gone after registration) For me, I would like any M to have at least internal recording capability that is HD with a mic in to bring decent sound and a headphone port to monitor sound. The HD needs to have 24, 25, 30 and 60 fps and there needs to be some sort of slog or similar to aid processing. This would require condensing the data and they would need to do this without wrecking the quality of the video. I would also like to decent control of the rolling shutter effect. To be really useful, however, the camera would need to also have HDMI output (perhaps you missed that I specified that), and would have to have excellent external video with a recorder. For external video I would expect 4K video with direct read out from the Super 35 portion of the sensor (this could work the same as on the SL), I would also like to see a full range of fps options, a couple of different log options, and minimal rolling shutter. To me that would be B+ video and would make it worth having on an M camera. I honestly don't think you will see any of this on an M camera ever. This is why Leica has produced the SL. That will be the camera that gets advanced video functionality moving forward. It just doesn't make any sense to try to cram all of this stuff into an M camera when the majority of M users don't shoot video and the majority of serious video shooters don't need a compact rangefinder camera. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tsleica Posted February 22, 2017 Share #48 Posted February 22, 2017 The SL is too big and chunky..not portable enough... If you want video..there are way better options via Sony or Panny than the SL..at a fraction of the cost.. IMO..it behooves Leica to implement video asap in the M in a different model..within 6 mos to a year..to keep the customers coming..and to have a vid option in a smaller rangefinder cam..but it needs to be better implemented.. I'm an old fart at age 60..and am not spending that kind of cash on a stills only cam..just to take scenics and people stuff..any ole cam can do that.. ..do you really need 10+K of cam to do that..nope..you don't.. I do have to admit though..the close to M form factor of the M10 is tempting..I handled my M6 today..and yes..it is a sweet lil cam..but the M10 is weighty.. So... common sense kicks in..and the $$..stays in the bank..no M10 for me..why..no video.. Sooner or later..they are going to run out of people that want a pared down M..as this current M10 is close to what the M6 was..and will only sell 1 or 2 to a specific customer every 5 to 10 years.. For those folks that want the M10..and are happy w/it..there is really no reason to buy another M...and most who can actually afford it..are older..and..well..not going to be around forever..to buy another one.. I don't see this playing out well for M in the long run..if the development stops at the M10.. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirk Mandeville Posted February 22, 2017 Share #49 Posted February 22, 2017 The SL is too big and chunky..not portable enough...If you want video..there are way better options via Sony or Panny than the SL..at a fraction of the cost..IMO..it behooves Leica to implement video asap in the M in a different model..within 6 mos to a year..to keep the customers coming..and to have a vid option in a smaller rangefinder cam..but it needs to be better implemented..I'm an old fart at age 60..and am not spending that kind of cash on a stills only cam..just to take scenics and people stuff..any ole cam can do that....do you really need 10+K of cam to do that..nope..you don't.. If this is your thought process, I can't imagine why you would be considering a digital Leica in the first place. As you say, any ole cam will do ... for stills or video. Leica offers something different than "any ole cam" for those who appreciate it. A full frame digital sensor in a compact well-designed rangefinder body, with a high build quality, and a lineup of some of the highest quality lenses produced. It's a combination of attributes that justify the high price to many serious photographers, pro and amateur alike, most of whom don't need or want video. If you just want to take "scenics and people stuff" and shoot a few videos, I can't imagine why you would need more than an iPhone, to be honest. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tsleica Posted February 22, 2017 Share #50 Posted February 22, 2017 I would venture..that most Leica "photogs" like it or not..98%...maybe 99.99%...lol..just take the everyday normal scenic and pet and family pics.. yada yada..you know the drill...just peruse the forums to see the... "art".. Sure..there are true artists using Leicas as well..but these are far and few between.. Yeah...we all know...the Leica is a well made machine..until.. you have to repair it.. ..but the artist can make art with anything.. But here is another thought.. For those that want Leica to remain in the M game/business..making pared down purist cameras..for a certain segment of buyers.. Its best for them for Leica to keep moving forward too with another model..because an M with video..will help the companysurvive and stay in business..by selling more cams.. And.. After the honeymoon with the M10...is over and done..and in 6 to 12 mos..and there is nothing left to do with the M..except take another happy snap.. They will find a way to put video in there.. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmahto Posted February 22, 2017 Share #51 Posted February 22, 2017 One of the reasons I am buying the M10 is that is does not have video functionality or a button for me to accidently press...... On M240, the video button can be disabled/enabled by menu which can be stored in profile. I have "video" profile and "still" profile. The only objection I can understand is that by removing video, still quality has been tuned for better. Although I am not sure whether it is true. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirk Mandeville Posted February 22, 2017 Share #52 Posted February 22, 2017 After the honeymoon with the M10...is over and done..and in 6 to 12 mos..and there is nothing left to do with the M..except take another happy snap..They will find a way to put video in there.. The thing is ... That's all the vast majority of Leica owners want to do with their cameras. Take photographs. Leica actually listened to their customer base in creating the M10. Most could care less about video and never use it. They are photographers, and want a camera that is designed specifically toward that end. I will be buying an M10 because it is perfectly designed for what I want to do -- take photographs. Video is irrelevant. I have an iPhone, iPad, and half a dozen other cameras I can use if I must shoot a video. But if I want to take a nice photograph, I'm going to reach for my M camera and one of Leica's fantastic lenses. And 99.9% of what I do with a camera is take photographs. Leica knows their market and will sell plenty of M cameras without video. They are not trying to be Sony or Fuji, and don't have to be in order to survive. They are doing just fine because they know their market. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lax Jought Posted February 22, 2017 Share #53 Posted February 22, 2017 If they really their market, they wouldn't have released the M240 at all. Forget about video, I recall there was a huge fuss about how Leica dumped the CCD sensor for the CMOS, and how it was going to be the end of Leica. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirk Mandeville Posted February 22, 2017 Share #54 Posted February 22, 2017 If they really their market, they wouldn't have released the M240 at all. Forget about video, I recall there was a huge fuss about how Leica dumped the CCD sensor for the CMOS, and how it was going to be the end of Leica. For every major change, there's going to be people happy with it and people who are upset by it. Leica sold plenty of M240's despite the people unhappy with the change to CMOS. The demand for the M10 is a good sign that all this talk of the end of Leica with every change to the camera is silly and absurd. The change to CMOS didn't spell the end of Leica, and neither will removal of video from the M platform. A few people will vehemently refuse to buy the camera (and I suspect many of them wouldn't have bought it regardless), but the vast majority of the devoted user base will recognize the benefits of the latest design and upgrade to the newer model, either now or down the road. 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted February 22, 2017 Share #55 Posted February 22, 2017 There is no doubt that the M10 will be huge sales success, I even expect it to remain on the market for an unusually long (in digital terms) time. However, the boundaries of the philosophy behind the camera have been drawn tighter, excluding a number of potential customers. I am sure that leica marketing took this effect into account. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tsleica Posted February 22, 2017 Share #56 Posted February 22, 2017 (edited) The M10..is the digital M7...and that was the end of that...done deal..do you really want that to happen...? No more growth..no more..evolution.. And I'm going to go out on a limb here and say..the SL..is the R series camera.. And we all know...what happened..to that... Edited February 22, 2017 by tsleica Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IkarusJohn Posted February 22, 2017 Share #57 Posted February 22, 2017 (edited) Video was included in the M(240) not because there was demand for it, but because it was possible with live view from the CMOS sensor. But, to do it, they did not upgrade the sensor or do anything much to make a good fist of it. Instead, they relied on an EVF that was superseded within weeks of release and retained a processor which meant the EVF could not be upgraded. As discussed elsewhere, the video was a novelty, rather than a serious offering, and it was trapped by obsolete technology on release. The heart of the M system, as many here will tell you, is the coupled rangefinder with manual lenses. To many here (most, probably) that is the entire point of the M system, and persisting with video would always be a compromise - hence the concentration on "the Essentials". If we accept that paradigm, then the opportunity for huge innovation is limited. Leica would seem to have that right, as the success of the M variants without video (and even without ZLCD) would indicate. But within that paradigm - the coupled rangefinder camera with the best 24MP sensor and fabulous lenses - what innovation are you looking for? The M10 is the best digital rangefinder in 35mm format there is - adding features won't improve on that. What Leica is saying, it seems, is the M is about being a rangefinder camera - if you don't want a rangefinder, get an S, SL orTL. The M won't have the innovation you seem to be looking for. Edited February 22, 2017 by IkarusJohn 4 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramarren Posted February 22, 2017 Share #58 Posted February 22, 2017 Okay: The SL is a new line to replace the R series. The R series of camera were in production from 1961 to 2009, or about 47 years. I'm okay with that for the SL series. It will likely be time for something new in 2060... 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirk Mandeville Posted February 22, 2017 Share #59 Posted February 22, 2017 The M10..is the digital M7...and that was the end of that...done deal..do you really want that to happen...? No more growth..no more..evolution.. The only reason the M7 stagnated is because digital replaced film as the predominant medium and film camera sales were no longer sufficient to justify an update to the product line. All the development resources went to the digital lines. Your comment assumes there is nowhere for Leica to go from the M10. This is rather short-sighted. Sensors will continue to improve in terms of resolution, dynamic range, high ISO performance, noise characteristics, color gamut, etc. The rangefinder focusing mechanism can be improved upon, and perhaps go all-digital rather than mechanical. Electronic viewfinder or even a hybrid optical/electronic viewfinder can be developed. In-camera stabilization. Better integration with iOS / computer apps. Shutter improvements resulting in an even quieter shutter and faster top shutter speed. And much more. Not to mention the inevitable Monochrome version. In short, Leica has lots of room to continue to improve the performance of this camera for generations to come. You seem to be hung up on the doom and gloom notion that Leica can't possibly survive as a company if they don't have video in an M camera, which seems kind of silly to me since Leica has always been a photographers camera first and foremost. The evidence completely belies the notion that lack of video will present any problems. Demand for the M10 is high and probably higher than it was for the M240. 4 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramarren Posted February 22, 2017 Share #60 Posted February 22, 2017 ... The heart of the M system, as many here will tell you, is the coupled rangefinder with manual lenses. ...the coupled rangefinder camera with the best 24MP sensor and fabulous lenses - what innovation are you looking for? ... I also wonder what innovation really improves on that paradigm. Adding features is not innovation; it's generally more convenience as we've heard in this thread: "I want video so that it's all in the one small package." Etc. More to the point, what would you add to an M7 film camera? I'm content with my M being simple, basic, "the essentials." That's why I'm sticking with the M4-2 and the M-D. 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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