Move to Medium format digital Leica s2, Pentax 645D or the new Fuji. Advice needed.

[mikeodial]

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Am considering moving from FF Nikon and Sigma SD1M to Medium format. I am considering a used S2 as a good direction, but would like to have input/opinions on other directions. I have a wide range of really good Zeiss ZF.2 lenses for my Nikon, so  they would likely be traded as a part of this process. (28/2, 50/2 Makro-Planar, 85/1.4, 135/2 APO) 

 

Do you think it's worth the move, or am I just suffering from Leica addiction? (Love my X Vario which was my first Leica last year). 

 

Most of my photography is landscape, still life, and some street. 

 

Thoughts and experience welcome. 

 

 

[Deliberate1]

Friend, it seems to me that the first question to pose is what you want from the  format, no matter what camp you end up in. Files from any MF system will likely provide a revelation coming from even FF. But you have to work to get the highest quality from your box. MF files are amazing, but to get consistent results you must understand the inherent technical limitations that do not encumber most 35mm systems. MF lenses tend to be slower than their smaller 35mm cousins. And while the newest MF systems have higher usable ISO capabilities, that too is a limiting factor in low light situations especially when shooting off tripod. Personally, I shoot my S (006) on a tripod or a substitute whenever I can. And especially when I shoot landscapes. I will tell you from hard experience that it is most disappointing to bring on my 24" NEC ICC calibrated screen a beautifully exposed and composed image that goes in the bin because I screwed up the one element I wanted to be sharpest, either because my focus was just a bit off, or because I was using too open an aperture or because the shutter speed was off as I tried to coordinate the proper balance among all the variables that must come together to make an image technically and aesthetically pleasing. I guess what I want to say is that I find MF less forgiving that 35mm in situations that make for the most interesting images - low light, atmospherics, lighting contrasts, moving subjects. That said, if you are prepared to spend the time, and learn what your camera needs, the results will be a revelation.

As for the best system to get, that requires serious financial, technical and aesthetic soul searching.

No one should presume to tell you what is the "best" camera for you. Pick them all up if you can. Close your eyes and feel it in your hands. Is it well-balanced. Your fingers should find the controls naturally. The menu should be intuitive and require no mental gymnastics that draw your focus away from your subject. Sling the camera over your shoulder. Is it comfortable resting at your hip. 

Decide whether you are looking for a fling or long term relationship. Because none is perfect. All have warts. Only you can decide how off-putting those warts are.

I chose the S system because I loved the files I got from my M9 but never truly adapted to the rangefinder. Having shot a Rollei 6008 (6x6) for several years, and some LF, I was already aware of the strengths and challenges (for me) of shooting in MF. I purchased a certified S 006 in November, 2015 and have shot it with the 70mm, 35mm as well Contax 35mm and 120mm, via the Leica adapter. This option is brilliant because you can access the splendid Zeiss lenses with the S, some of which  are not available in the Leica line, all of which are a fraction of the cost of native glass, and none of which have the AF problems endemic with Leica MF lenses. But they are not weather tight, which is a very nice Leica feature, especially for those of us who venture into weather that is fit neither for man nor beast.

If you do decide to buy Leica, I suggest purchasing from a Leica dealer if you can find what you want and it is financially feasible. You will need their assistance. It is just a matter off time. I bought my gear at steep discounts from Leica Miami and have had excellent service from them. Look for certified gear from Leica stores. My S came to me in new condition at about a quarter of the release price.

If you find being part of an on-line community a factor, check out other sites to determine whether the personality of the place is compatible. I have found this place to be a source of support and inspiration. And amusement.

Finally, permit me a bit of advice that I frequently revisit. I am the one who makes the image, not the camera. And no one judging one of my images (including me) gives a crap what box it came from.

Happy shooting,

David 

Edited January 16, 2017 by Deliberate1

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[Printmaker]

There is no doubt that the files from my S2 are vastly superior to those from either my M9 or my Monochrom. And the Leica S lenses are simply the sharpest you can buy. But I consider the S2 a studio camera and always reach for the M9 or Monochrom when going somewhere due to the size and weight. Still, mounted on a tripod, the S2 is fabulous.

[tom0511]

I carry the S around in a backpack with 2-3 lenses and dont see it as a problem. The S2/S006 is for handhold only in good light. 

Yes, I think its worth the move. You will see a difference in color, sharpness and transitions.

[pico]

Medium Format and larger analog films when wet printed by an expert have a certain excellent quality. Without humility I am one of those expert printers.

 

Shooting in MF or LF and then scanning offers special advantages - to those who criticize from a screen view.  Regardless of the scan, consider how the image is delivered. Was it presented on your computer screen? Clue: Your screen has a diminished pretension. You have no idea how an analog print appears.

 

Enough for now.

Edited January 16, 2017 by pico

[faranstudio]

S camera body and lenses are good but you should make sure to have a backup system as Leica's repair/maintenance is a bit lengthy specially for US customers. Also if you plan to shoot long exposure scenes, S system might not be the best platform (limited time option for that purpose). I have used S006 and S007 for many trips and was happy with it but there are shortcomings when it comes to sensor megapixel, crop ratio and etc.

 

For the highest quality landscape photography I recommend Technical Camera systems with P1 CMOS Digital back. There is nothing can beat that setup IMHO. I have compared Alpa Rodenstock files with P1, Leica S and Zeiss lenses and their quality is not that close to TC lenses. I have seen great photos produced with Nikon D810 or 5DSr and Zeiss Otus combo very similar to S system.

 

With the latest screen technology enhancements including 5k and 8k monitors for sure photographers will benefit from the higher megapixel sensors.

 

S system is a great complimentary/secondary system but then there are new mirrorless MF systems coming to the market soon which might be a good combination for your with your DSLR and Zeiss lenses and of course they are lighter when it comes to weight.

 

Good luck and keep us updated.

[mikeodial]

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S camera body and lenses are good but you should make sure to have a backup system as Leica's repair/maintenance is a bit lengthy specially for US customers. Also if you plan to shoot long exposure scenes, S system might not be the best platform (limited time option for that purpose). I have used S006 and S007 for many trips and was happy with it but there are shortcomings when it comes to sensor megapixel, crop ratio and etc.

 

For the highest quality landscape photography I recommend Technical Camera systems with P1 CMOS Digital back. There is nothing can beat that setup IMHO. I have compared Alpa Rodenstock files with P1, Leica S and Zeiss lenses and their quality is not that close to TC lenses. I have seen great photos produced with Nikon D810 or 5DSr and Zeiss Otus combo very similar to S system.

 

With the latest screen technology enhancements including 5k and 8k monitors for sure photographers will benefit from the higher megapixel sensors.

 

S system is a great complimentary/secondary system but then there are new mirrorless MF systems coming to the market soon which might be a good combination for your with your DSLR and Zeiss lenses and of course they are lighter when it comes to weight.

 

Good luck and keep us updated.

Thank you for this input. I have considered upgrading my other Zeiss lenses to the Milvus level, some of which are very close to the Otus standard now. 

 

See details at http://www.lenscore.org/ 

 

Or making the move to Otus with the D810.  

[tom0511]

I think lenses are one thing but you have to also consider what you expect.

What do you miss with the Nikon?

How do you plan to shoot? (tripod/handhold/both)

do you shoot in bad weather (S is very good weather sealing)?

Do you need T/S (not many optins for the S, technical camera should be much better)

How big do you plan to print?

Do you want AF occasionally (Otus doesn't/Tech camera doesn't)

Which focal length you plan to use?

 

Also when comparing systems I would also factor in the future options.

Today the S has same MP like the D810, but with a larger sensor there will be pretty sure higher pixel versions in the future.

[mikeodial]

I think lenses are one thing but you have to also consider what you expect.

What do you miss with the Nikon?

There is nothing really wrong with the Nikon. Higher resolution and in search of the Medium Format look and the Leica rendering is something I would like to have. (I see the Leica rendering on my little X Vario) 

 

How do you plan to shoot? (tripod/handhold/both)

Both 

do you shoot in bad weather (S is very good weather sealing)?

Yes, I do shoot in bad weather.

 

Do you need T/S (not many optins for the S, technical camera should be much better)

 

At present I have no need for T/S 

 

How big do you plan to print?

 

30 x 40 or larger on occasion. All my smaller print needs are met by the Nikon and my Sigma camera 

 

Do you want AF occasionally (Otus doesn't/Tech camera doesn't)

 

Auto focus not currently needed 

 

Which focal length you plan to use?

 

15mm, 28mm, 50mm, 85mm, 135mm (35 equivalents) 

 

Also when comparing systems I would also factor in the future options.

Today the S has same MP like the D810, but with a larger sensor there will be pretty sure higher pixel versions in the future.

 

Great questions. Please see my answers above. 

[albertknappmd]

I would reiterate that the S is not necessarily a tripod bound camera. yes, a tripod can enhance certain technical aspects and brings a bit more rigor to your composition and is very helpful in low light etc but I have gone all over the world with my S handheld probably 80% of the time...

Albert     

[mikeodial]

I would reiterate that the S is not necessarily a tripod bound camera. yes, a tripod can enhance certain technical aspects and brings a bit more rigor to your composition and is very helpful in low light etc but I have gone all over the world with my S handheld probably 80% of the time...

Albert     

 

That is very helpful. I see the S2 is not any bigger than the D810 which is about the limit of what I like to lug around. 

[chapel]

Check out the Pentax 645z instead of the 645D. The CMOS sensor has a large usable ISO range and makes for a good hand held shooter. 

Greg

[Deliberate1]

At the risk of being branded as a shill, good deal on a certified S 006 (with goodies) at Leica Miami. Got mine for basically the same price. Three year warranty as well as loaner replacement. And they have been very good to deal with when stuff goes wrong (35mm on its way for motor repair - beats sending it to Germany yourself).

[tom0511]

Great questions. Please see my answers above. 

 

Hi,

I do think there is a "medium format look" when using the S. I dont have a D810. But a Nikon df, Leica T,M,SL and S.

I find the S offers a visible advantage in IQ. Smooth transitions (colors, tones, sharpness), very good color, very good tones in the midrange.

From your answers I think the S could work well for you. Maybe you have the chance to check one out first before buying.

[mmx_2]

And prices are very low on S right now:). So far, Leica have been very service minded.

[faranstudio]

Thank you for this input. I have considered upgrading my other Zeiss lenses to the Milvus level, some of which are very close to the Otus standard now. 

 

See details at http://www.lenscore.org/ 

 

Or making the move to Otus with the D810.  

 

As long as you are comfortable with focusing manually on the Zeiss Otus lenses the result for sure will be rewarding (manual focusing with live view will be very accurate even on the S platform) In addition you can use the right focus screen for the Nikon system to enhance the focusing (I wish they offered it for 5DsR).

[faranstudio]

Great questions. Please see my answers above. 

 

If you are planning to go light S might not be the lightest option based on these focal ranges that you mentioned above. Only zoom option in S is 30-90 which might not be wide enough for you and rest of the ranges should be covered by prime lenses and they will add more weight to your kit where you can easily travel with two zoom lenses with Nikon kit + 2.8 with IS.

 

btw, 30-90 S zoom lens is very good but again heavy and expensive.

[menos I M6]

Am considering moving from FF Nikon and Sigma SD1M to Medium format. I am considering a used S2 as a good direction, but would like to have input/opinions on other directions. I have a wide range of really good Zeiss ZF.2 lenses for my Nikon, so  they would likely be traded as a part of this process. (28/2, 50/2 Makro-Planar, 85/1.4, 135/2 APO) 

 

Do you think it's worth the move, or am I just suffering from Leica addiction? (Love my X Vario which was my first Leica last year). 

 

Most of my photography is landscape, still life, and some street. 

 

Thoughts and experience welcome. 

 

Just a thought:

 

Between my Leica S2 with two S lenses and a truckload of Contax 645, Mamiya and Hasselblad lenses and my Nikon D800E and a large selection of Nikon lenses from old Ai-S to new and fancy f1.4 primes which camera do you think I am most often grabbing?

 

… it is the D800E

 

Only very rarely nowadays do I use the S2 in favor of the D800E.

 

Reasons:

 

- the D800E murders the S2 above ISO 400

- MUCH more flexible, usable and faster Auto focus

- lens selection

- WEIGHT and size (MF lenses are bulky and heavy)

 

The S2 sensor murders the D800E sensor in terms of tonality but only at ISO 320 and below.

In terms of acuity and detail the S2 has a slight edge at ISO 160 and 320 - above that the better low light performance of the Nikon sensor takes over.

 

You buy a S2 for:

- the Leica S lenses

- it's base ISO performance in tonality, acuity

- it's marvelous huge, bright viewfinder

- operation with studio flash (especially with it's leaf shutter lens line)

- it's amazing 16bit files (limited by its rather poor high ISO performance)

 

If you find yourself using the flexibility and low light capabilities of a Nikon 35mm DSLR and like the comparable light weight and small size a lot, the S2 may disappoint you in some ways.

If you ever use the flexible Nikon AF system (especially continuous focus on moving subjects) at any time, you will downright hate the S2.

 

The S2 AF system does work well - very precise as long as your subjects are predictable and not changing distance fast.

 

The Leica S lenses are second to none (but also pricey when planning a full lens kit coming from 35mm).

They are also not comparable with the rugged and bulletproof Leica lenses of old as they run on chips, use modern materials and have shown to fail.

It seems they do not have the long life and ruggedness we connect with old Leica M and R lenses - think about this aspect when planning to pay for a full lens kit.

 

The Leica S2 is among the most flexible medium format camera bodies when it comes to adapt and use legacy medium format lenses of other makers - if this interests you and you want to use that fantastic true 16bit sensor - go for it!

 

For me the Leica S2 never was a system camera that replaces my Nikon system (I always kept a Nikon SLR system for it's strengths and used the S2 as a modern medium format system for portraits and travel instead of film medium format cameras).

I would never sell a Nikon system in favor of getting a S2 except for landscape and studio use where the S2 excels.

[Photoskeptic]

If you are looking at form factor, the S will be closest to the Nikon of all the MF options. I have/had both and my take is if you are not going to make large prints you are wasting your time and money.

If you are determined to continue the quest the S006 might be a good fit, but you need to try one first - a little spent on a rental could save you big bucks in the future.

I have a D810/Otus 55 rig and while the sharpness is pretty darn good it will not match the tonality and character of the S lenses and you will find the sharpness quite similar. You can shoot all the S glass wide open.

Pentax is another option. I haven't shot one and know little about it.

The new Fuji looks promising and will undoubtedly be the less expensive option for getting into MF, but ASFAIK there are no shooting experiences available. And I really am not interested in this camera.

I also shoot a tech cam with Rodenstock lenses. As I write this I have a large print from S006 & 100/2 on the wall next to the same subject shot with the tech cam. The S image holds up very well and demonstrates more character and drama. I shoot the tech cam for the challenge because it is almost a 180 degree switch from FF and MF and gives me pause for a more deliberate way of shooting.

Your Nikon will be more versatile than any MF so keep that in mind.

Good luck.

PS. What Dirk said

Edited January 20, 2017 by Photoskeptic

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[FlashGordonPhotography]

The S is a step up on the D810. The S2 (and 006) isn't. The S2 has around 12 stops of DR and poor high ISO performance. D810 is almost 14 stops and the type 007 is almost 15 stops.

 

The Pentax 645D has around 13.5 stops of Dr and the 645Z has just over 15.

 

All the MF options have superior tonality and transitions at base ISO, even if the DR is less.

 

The S has the best selection of near perfect lenses. No bad choices. Pentax has some but choose carefully. The new ones are all great. The 120 macro and 200mm are great. The older zooms and other older lenses need to be stopped down. I have the 28-45, 45-85, 80-160, 55, 75, 120, 150 and 200mm. they're all very good but only the 28-45, 120, and 75 are great from wide open. The rest need to be at 5.6 or f8 to be great. OTOH I can shoot the Leicas at f2.5 all day with no hesitation, except the zoom which is better a stop or two down.

 

For reference I have an S2, 007, P645Z in mini MF. My reference 35mm camera is an A7R2. For landscapes I usually take the Pentax. For everything else and general shooting the S cameras. Smaller formats when I have to although the A7r2 functions mostly as a backup to my SL.

 

Gordon

Edited January 21, 2017 by FlashGordonPhotography