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Street and Wildlife Photography with SL, possibilities, alternatives


steppenw0lf

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The two topics mentioned in the title are for me a "problem" with the SL. I have lenses to use for these occasions, but I have to take them not from the official SL lens list, but from older R and M lenses that I acquired over the years. For street I use mainly the R 35-70 Macro (or a Contax equivalent) and for "wildlife" the R 2.8/280 with 1.4x and 2.0 Apo extenders.

IQ is high, but the handling (regarding AF and OIS) is not on the current level.

 

Last year Leica announced the Vario-Elmar 100-400 f/4-6.3 Asph zoom lens for the PanaLeica cameras. A very handy 200-800 mm euivalent lens with moderate weight and fast AF and OIS, so that it offers a "birding" lens that can be handheld.

Since then I regard the PanaLeicas as a sort of potential stand-in where the Leica SL is not "perfect" enough as small modern lenses are missing. The crop factor of 2 is very nice for every occasion where a tele-lens is required.

 

A few days ago Leica/Panasonic have announced a 12-60 f/2.8-4 Asph OIS standardzoom that could also stand-in as a "street" camera/lens, for all those who are not so "cosy" with the current SL 24-90. It is really manageable weighing only 320g and being less than 9 cm long and is a 24-120 equivalent standardzoom.

Not only this, but two more lenses from Leica will be added later, a 8-18 (16-36 equiv) and a 50-200 (100-400 equiv).

So for me this series gets more and more interesting. Somehow I do not like the Panasonic lenses, but these Leica constructions are very much to my taste. Of course it will not be a replacement for my beloved SL, but it could help in some special cases. (street and wildlife). And the handling is probably quite similar, as they share AF technology.

I would not even have to renounce on Leica lenses, and they are quite affordable anyway. And AF and OIS is very close to the abilities of the SL. The internal focusing is said to be as silent as the SL lenses.

http://www.imaging-resource.com/news/2017/01/04/panasonic-announces-new-bridge-superzoom-compact-mirrorless-12-60mm-f-2.8-4

http://www.43rumors.com/panasonic-leica-lens-roadmap-one-lens-still-in-2016-two-lenses-in-2017/

http://www.lesnumeriques.com/objectif/panasonic-leica-dg-vario-elmarit-12-60-mm-f-2-8-4-asph-p36939/ces-2017-panasonic-leica-dg-vario-elmarit-12-60-mm-f-2-8-4-0-asph-n59041.html

At least in the photos I like these lenses, they remind me a little of the R lenses (they are solid metal constructions), while the current SL lenses have more similarities with lenses from the S series.

 

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Edited by steppenw0lf
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You need to use them on a PanaLeica camera, e.g. Panasonic GH5. AFAIK they cannot be attached to the SL. 

And the crop factor for the micro four thirds system is 2x. The Leica 100-400 is equivalent to a 200-800 mm zoom. The 12-60 equivalent to a 24-120 zoom.

The GH5 camera is quite similar to the SL regarding technical specs. And the lenses use the "same" AF system, and have the "same" OIS.

In a way it is the "little brother/sister" of the SL. (smaller sensor, with about 20 MP)

 

It could be a handy option for a safari: Leica SL for "everything" (16 to 280mm) and GH5 with Leica 100-400 for extreme tele shots (200-800mm).

As I heard the GH5 will also have 5-axis stabilization (ibis). A very welcome add-on for extreme tele usage., that is currently missing in the SL (this is just what I heard, I do not follow this very closely - so not confirmed). It gives reason for hope, that this will also be added to a future SL.

Edited by steppenw0lf
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Sorry but I am not sure I share/understand your interpretation of 'street'? If you mean 'street photography' I can comment but we might still be apart in our understanding so if we are forgive me.

 

A 28mm, 35mm or 50mm M Summicron is the perfect street photography lens depending on what focal lenght street shooter you are (every street photographer will 100% know what their focal length lens for street photography is). Zooms are anathema to the genre.

 

I am not quite a pure bred 'street photographer' and am still learning the craft. This is evident by the fact that I flip flop between 35mm and 50mm. I should be a 50mm shooter as most of the time I crop my street shots. But whenever I raise my camera, 35mm feels more comfortable. I still have a lot to learn.

 

The reason you have one length is that you know how to work that focal length. You use zone focusing and you learn your distances and you learn how to focus fast manually. This is a far more productive way to shoot street than to use autofocus or zoom lenses surely?

 

I have not the remotest interest, skill or ability to comment on wildlife photography though so will offer nothing on that part of your question.

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The two topics mentioned in the title are for me a "problem" with the SL. I have lenses to use for these occasions, but I have to take them not from the official SL lens list, but from older R and M lenses that I acquired over the years. For street I use mainly the R 35-70 Macro (or a Contax equivalent) and for "wildlife" the R 2.8/280 with 1.4x and 2.0 Apo extenders.

IQ is high, but the handling (regarding AF and OIS) is not on the current level.

 

Last year Leica announced the Vario-Elmar 100-400 f/4-6.3 Asph zoom lens for the PanaLeica cameras. A very handy 200-800 mm euivalent lens with moderate weight and fast AF and OIS, so that it offers a "birding" lens that can be handheld.

Since then I regard the PanaLeicas as a sort of potential stand-in where the Leica SL is not "perfect" enough as small modern lenses are missing. The crop factor of 2 is very nice for every occasion where a tele-lens is required.

 

A few days ago Leica/Panasonic have announced a 12-60 f/2.8-4 Asph OIS standardzoom that could also stand-in as a "street" camera/lens, for all those who are not so "cosy" with the current SL 24-90. It is really manageable weighing only 320g and being less than 9 cm long and is a 24-120 equivalent standardzoom.

Not only this, but two more lenses from Leica will be added later, a 8-18 (16-36 equiv) and a 50-200 (100-400 equiv).

So for me this series gets more and more interesting. Somehow I do not like the Panasonic lenses, but these Leica constructions are very much to my taste. Of course it will not be a replacement for my beloved SL, but it could help in some special cases. (street and wildlife). And the handling is probably quite similar, as they share AF technology.

I would not even have to renounce on Leica lenses, and they are quite affordable anyway. And AF and OIS is very close to the abilities of the SL. The internal focusing is said to be as silent as the SL lenses.

http://www.imaging-resource.com/news/2017/01/04/panasonic-announces-new-bridge-superzoom-compact-mirrorless-12-60mm-f-2.8-4

http://www.43rumors.com/panasonic-leica-lens-roadmap-one-lens-still-in-2016-two-lenses-in-2017/

http://www.lesnumeriques.com/objectif/panasonic-leica-dg-vario-elmarit-12-60-mm-f-2-8-4-asph-p36939/ces-2017-panasonic-leica-dg-vario-elmarit-12-60-mm-f-2-8-4-0-asph-n59041.html

At least in the photos I like these lenses, they remind me a little of the R lenses (they are solid metal constructions), while the current SL lenses have more similarities with lenses from the S series.

 

attachicon.gifPanaLeic 12-60 OIS Standardzoom aerez.jpg

I am looking at the 100-400 DG Vario-Elmar as well, but the required Micro 4/3rds camera is holding me back. I'm not sure  whether the quality loss by the smaller sensor is compensated by the ease of use. The GH5 sounds interesting, but as it is not yet available I am waiting for reports on the image quality compared to high-end full frame sensors.

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The images I have seen, that were made with the 100-400 were very impressive. I cannot say how big the quality reduction was, as the images were not shown in 100% resolution.

But in many cases this is typical - images are often cropped, or for other reasons not shown in full. And instead of using FF with enormous lenses (from CaNikon), this much smaller combination is very attractive. Also regarding the long travels that are often necessary to get to the "exotic" places that have the most interesting fauna. (problems at customs, protecting the equipment against theft or damage).

And I must confess I like the look and touch of the Leica for Panasonic lenses.

The images I have seen were taken with a 16 MP sensor, the GH5 will have slightly more resolution and accordingly probably even less quality loss.

The 100-400 will at 400mm probably not be as crisp as the equivalent Apo 5.6/800 lens. But for an amateur like me a more sensible investment, than the professional FF lenses.

 

Here an example: http://www.stevehuffphoto.com/2016/05/02/the-mighty-panasonic-leica-100-400mm-lens-review-by-bob-towery/

Look at the enormous size difference of the equipment - that alone is already convincing me (I am lazy and a big lens is not helping me.)

This for those who do not like Steve Huff:

http://naturalexposures.com/lumix-diaries-leica-100-400mm-samples/

Edited by steppenw0lf
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IQ with Micro 4/3rds is really good in good light conditions, although you will have to live with more aggressive noise levels at every ISO.

At higher ISO (ISO 1600 and up) the difference in IQ is huge.

 

The GH5 is much bigger and heavier than the OMD EM1 Mark 2. At the same time, the GH5 does not feel as well made in the hands.

The GH5 seems to be better for video but for stills, the Olympus might make more sense. 

I am looking forward to the reviews.

 

Also, I am unsure whether I would be happy with the IQ of the Pana 100-400. 

The Olympus 300mm pro is better, but the question is, does the difference in IQ really matter?

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Yes, the GH5 is bigger, just like the SL is bigger than the a7R. But this is exactly what I like.

Also the viewfinder is much better - almost as good as the SL EVF. (3.7 MP)

 

I cannot understand why people are crazy about small cameras, and at the same time they know that they will need big lenses, so that the camera size does not matter anymore.

The difference of the Oly 300 to the 100-400 is bigger than the difference in size of the cameras. So the total is what counts. One camera is only 150 g heavier than the other, that is almost nothing. (725g vs 574g)

Small cameras are probably ergonomic for women, for me (a man of more than average height) they are no pleasure.

 

Also the Oly EM1 cannot use all the features of the lens, while the Panasonic camera is explicitly made for this lens. (and vice versa)

The Oly cameras were for me only interesting, while there was no stabilization in the Panasonic cameras.

 

And the GH5 now seems to be officially announced: http://www.panasonic.com/de/consumer/foto-video/lumix-g-wechselobjektivkameras/dc-gh5.html

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The two topics mentioned in the title are for me a "problem" with the SL. ... 

 

 

I'm not sure why you find this to be a problem.

 

First off, depending on how close you can get to the subject, both the SL24-90 and SL90-280 make excellent wildlife lenses with OIS as well as AF if you choose to use AF.

 

Obviously, if you need more reach than 280mm, you either have to crop your exposures or adapt a longer lens. Bird photographers usually work with much longer lenses because birds are small and move around very quickly—if that's your thing, and you want AF and OIS, you need a different camera* at the present time. Most folks currently using the SL for very long reach at the present time adapt a lens or two. My crappy little Sigma 600mm f/8 mirror lens adapts beautifully to the SL and gives amazing reach, if not a lot of quality. 

 

Second ... street photography can be done with the SL24-90 or with any number of adapted manual lenses. (Remember that the SL body was designed with the notion of adapting Leica M and R lenses to it seamlessly and works brilliantly with them.) With the SL24-90, you get excellent OIS and AF while with adapted lenses you don't, but the most successful street photography I've seen has always been done with zone focus and generally something in the 21 to 50 mm focal length, which generally doesn't need OIS until you're talking about night shooting. Even then, you always want to be shooting at 1/15-1/30 second anyway to stop subject motion so fast lenses and high ISO settings do the job. I've done quite a lot of street photography with SL24-90, R19, R24, R35, and R50 lenses, a good bit with the WATE (Tri-Elmar-M 16-18-21mm) as well. I don't see anything about it that is a problem. 

 

* If you've decided that you must have a different camera and want to use Micro-FourThirds lenses, either of the Panasonic GHx series bodies or the Olympus E-M1/E-M1 II are excellent cameras that work brilliantly for long lens work. The Olympus is my preference because of its excellent in-body IS and incredible control customizability; the Panasonic would be my pick if I wanted to do video first and foremost and stills were a secondary consideration. Moving to the FourThirds format nets longer reach and more DoF with long focal lengths, just what you need. The sensors in both these cameras produce excellent results of pro-grade quality. Perhaps they do not produce exactly the same qualities as FF or Medium Format for pixel peeping purposes, but in any practical terms this small format is extremely well suited to doing long-lens wildlife work, and it reduces the size and weight of your kit in the field. 

 

Of course, you know all this already...  :rolleyes:

Edited by ramarren
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IQ with Micro 4/3rds is really good in good light conditions, although you will have to live with more aggressive noise levels at every ISO.

At higher ISO (ISO 1600 and up) the difference in IQ is huge.

 

The GH5 is much bigger and heavier than the OMD EM1 Mark 2. At the same time, the GH5 does not feel as well made in the hands.

The GH5 seems to be better for video but for stills, the Olympus might make more sense. 

I am looking forward to the reviews.

 

Also, I am unsure whether I would be happy with the IQ of the Pana 100-400. 

The Olympus 300mm pro is better, but the question is, does the difference in IQ really matter?

It is hard to compare an extreme zoom with a prime lens, however I find the  DG Vario-Elmar results I have seen quite impressive. Having said that, I am still unconvinced by 4/3rd sensors, my experience  - which admittedly is about 5 years in the past, was that structures like foliage tended to get quite painterly. I would not be surprised though to learn that new sensor technology is much better in that respect. My main problem is whether I would be willing to give up my beloved 105-280 Vario Elmar with apo-extenders... Of course, just selling that lens would easily pay for a complete m4/3 system... :rolleyes:

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It is hard to compare an extreme zoom with a prime lens, however I find the  DG Vario-Elmar results I have seen quite impressive. Having said that, I am still unconvinced by 4/3rd sensors, my experience  - which admittedly is about 5 years in the past, was that structures like foliage tended to get quite painterly. I would not be surprised though to learn that new sensor technology is much better in that respect. My main problem is whether I would be willing to give up my beloved 105-280 Vario Elmar with apo-extenders... Of course, just selling that lens would easily pay for a complete m4/3 system... :rolleyes:

 

 

My E-M1 was delivered in 2013. Its 16 Mpixel sensor is excellent quality, has no AA filter for maximum resolution, and images very nicely when you use Olympus and Panasonic top quality lenses. (Although it's easy to adapt other lenses to these cameras, the best results come from the high grade lenses computed specifically for their sensors.) I've never seen foliage and such look "painterly" with it, at least not if the lens was up to the task and properly focused. 

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I agree, if you shoot raw, image quality with m4/3 is really good at lower ISO settings.

 

Again, the E-M1 mark II feels better in my hands than the GH5. The GH5, in my opinion, feels somewhat clumsy. 

However, I only had about two minutes with each camera, so I cannot comment on the functionality.

 

Personally, I am only interested in these cameras for the use of long tele lenses. 

So the choice of body will most likely depend on whether I'm buying the Pana 100-400 or the Olympus 300pro.

I will most likely try these combinations before I make a decision.

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I agree, if you shoot raw, image quality with m4/3 is really good at lower ISO settings.

 

Again, the E-M1 mark II feels better in my hands than the GH5. The GH5, in my opinion, feels somewhat clumsy. 

However, I only had about two minutes with each camera, so I cannot comment on the functionality.

 

Personally, I am only interested in these cameras for the use of long tele lenses. 

So the choice of body will most likely depend on whether I'm buying the Pana 100-400 or the Olympus 300pro.

I will most likely try these combinations before I make a decision.

I'll be most interested in your results.

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I agree, if you shoot raw, image quality with m4/3 is really good at lower ISO settings.

 

Again, the E-M1 mark II feels better in my hands than the GH5. The GH5, in my opinion, feels somewhat clumsy. 

However, I only had about two minutes with each camera, so I cannot comment on the functionality.

 

Personally, I am only interested in these cameras for the use of long tele lenses. 

So the choice of body will most likely depend on whether I'm buying the Pana 100-400 or the Olympus 300pro.

I will most likely try these combinations before I make a decision.

 

 

I tend to agree, but then again they work rather nicely for macro as well. I think the key is that smaller formats in general work better in higher magnification imaging. 

 

The problem is that once you get used to what high quality FF looks like (Leica with ultra-wide to normal to short tele lenses), the smaller format limitations become more apparent to your eye. Since most of my shooting is in the ultra-wide to portrait tele range, moving to a larger format made sense, and moving to a larger format still remains a draw.

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Regarding the big progress Panasonic (and indirectly Leica) is making - regarding AF, OIS, IBIS and EVF - it gets more and more unlikely I will ever buy a X1D or GFX. It is simply against the "general trend" of miniaturization and cost saving. These low volume sensors will probably always stay extremly expensive.

But I need to know the details anyway, and if only to see clearly how one is progressing, while the other is still stuck in technical difficulties.

But currently I have the impression, that the future steps and the direction (for me) are getting clearer and any month more obvious.

 

At the same time it is "amazing" that CaNikon are not changing or at least adapting their strategy regarding "mirrorless" technology. Although I follow that too, I cannot see any progress there. (since about three years). Too bad, since I always expected to continue with them, but just on a slightly adapted "mirrorless line". But currently it looks as if this is never going to happen.

Edited by steppenw0lf
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I agree, if you shoot raw, image quality with m4/3 is really good at lower ISO settings.

 

Again, the E-M1 mark II feels better in my hands than the GH5. The GH5, in my opinion, feels somewhat clumsy. 

However, I only had about two minutes with each camera, so I cannot comment on the functionality.

 

Personally, I am only interested in these cameras for the use of long tele lenses. 

So the choice of body will most likely depend on whether I'm buying the Pana 100-400 or the Olympus 300pro.

I will most likely try these combinations before I make a decision.

 

 

You might also take a look at the Fujifilm X-T2 with the XF 100-400. A very good camera and an excellent lens. A 1.4x extender is available.

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There are two possible valid strategies (in my eyes): APS-C and mini-midrange (GFX) like Fuji suggests and tries to make sexy.

Or FF and mFT, which is the combination that Leica SL and  Panasonic G80 or GH5 do represent.

 

I tend to the second combination, first of all because I love the SL and enjoy adapting many older lenses I acquired over the years  (especially for macro and also a wide selection of UWA). And second because mFT offers a large crop factor of 2 which makes an extremely big difference. Anybody who has seen the R 800mm lens attached to an SL body and afterwards sees the GH5 plus 100-400 (an equivalent lens) cannot avoid being impressed.

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Edited by steppenw0lf
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Re: SL & Street.. if data is the plural of anecdote..

 

While renting an SL for 2 weeks & shooting with an M 50/1.4 Summilux

 

Got yelled at by a subject while shooting street for the first time in probably 2 years... was strange.

 

I find the ergonomics of the SL nice for street.. but there is no hiding the camera, it is very "there".

My SL hit rate also exceeds my M hit rate .. so.. it is quite a dilemna.

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Got yelled at by a subject while shooting street for the first time in probably 2 years... was strange.

 

I find the ergonomics of the SL nice for street.. but there is no hiding the camera, it is very "there".

My SL hit rate also exceeds my M hit rate .. so.. it is quite a dilemna.

 

Had you taped over the Leica lettering and red dot? The lettering can be quite 'in your face'.

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Re: SL & Street.. if data is the plural of anecdote..

 

While renting an SL for 2 weeks & shooting with an M 50/1.4 Summilux

 

Got yelled at by a subject while shooting street for the first time in probably 2 years... was strange.

 

I find the ergonomics of the SL nice for street.. but there is no hiding the camera, it is very "there".

My SL hit rate also exceeds my M hit rate .. so.. it is quite a dilemna.

 

 

I never attempt to hide a camera when I'm doing street photography. That's attempting to be "covert" which usually annoys people much more than just being "unobtrusive".

 

Unobtrusive means shooting in a professional manner:

  • economy of body movement and economy of camera movement first and foremost
  • have everything set and ready, lift to the eye, focus and make exposure smoothly, directly, without fuss
  • if someone glares at you or looks directly at you, look back and acknowledge them with your eyes to say, "Yes, I'm making photos. If you don't want to be in the photo, let me know and I'll make sure you're not."
  • be direct, up front, and professional when you speak to a subject about what you're doing

I've often had a person step over and ask me what I was doing in a curious or hostile manner. I smile, give them my name, ask their name, and explain very briefly my photographic efforts. If there are children in the frame (hard not to be in some circumstances on the street), I usually seek for whomever their guardian or parent is and make eye contact at least; we often end up chatting about the kids for a bit; it puts them at ease and lets me work more unobtrusively. If the parent or guardian is stressed out or adamant that they do not want photos made, I smile and thank them, and put the camera down to look for other subjects. I ask many if they want a copy of the photo too. 

 

I've worked this way with Rolleiflexes, Nikon SLRs, Leica Ms, Hasselblads, whatever. It's always been successful. :)

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