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M type 262 or Q. Need advice


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For me, the main question would be: Do you need/want AF to get your results? The M is a much more demanding camera to get candid shots.

 

All the rest, price, focal lengths, value, lens performance etc. is second to that question.

 

 

If you decide you would like to go for the M, why not get a used M240 and an older Summicron?

 

 

Heiko

I wanted to go for full manual, thats why AF on Q is not a big advantage. 
I understand that M is more challenging camera, at the end I hope I will get used to it  :D
 
Used M bodies in a good condition are not that cheap, so I prefer to add some money and buy a new one instead.
If the new M won't change it's sensor, I will definitely go for M262 bundle.
 
Brend new m240 and m262 costs almost the same. Also if I buy a new body, I could get my VAT back, so the total price drops to the used body level.
 
Kamil
Edited by kamilmanafov
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Interesting.  I, too, have a Q and an M 262.   The M has a 75mm lens mounted.  The camera I grab often becomes a matter of focal length selection.   Sometimes I grab both.  Since I've had both I've used the Q about twice as often as the M.  That is because I prefer wider shots most of the time.

 

If I was forced to get rid of one I'd probably keep the M because it is more versatile.   Of course I'd have to then add a 28 or 35 mm lens.

 

      My favourite camera was the Q until I got the M. Q has more modern sensor, the high ISO capabilities are much better etc.. but I love the rangefinder experience. This is why I am waiting the 18th of Jan to see a rangefinder with improved specs.

 

      My GF hates M, she is not happy that I put the Q on sale  :D

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I wanted to go for full manual, thats why AF on Q is not a big advantage. 
I understand that M is more challenging camera, at the end I hope I will get used to it  :D
 
Used M bodies in a good condition are not that cheap, so I prefer to add some money and buy a new one instead.
If the new M won't change it's sensor, I will definitely go for M262 bundle.
 
Brend new m240 and m262 costs almost the same. Also if I buy a new body, I could get my VAT back, so the total price drops to the used body level.
 
Kamil

 

 

      The new M will definitely have a newer sensor, probably similar to SL or more advanced , but the problem is the release date and the slow delivery times of Leica. You may get the new M in the next summer or fall. People waited for months for the Q and M240. I hope there won't be the same story for the next M.

Edited by CYBORA
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Curious .....What camera you are using now?

The M is wonderful and as you said manual focus takes some getting used to.....after  a while it becomes second nature.

Do you only shoot street photography or is this a general purpose camera as well?

 

Is there a reason it has to be Leica? You can spend a lot less and still get great street photos. Do you currently make large prints?

I'm trying to save you from the Leica addiction  :)

........Welcome to the Forum

 

 

This is gonna be my first serious camera. I'm shooting street with my iPhone :D .
Firstly I was between X100T and Q and decided to go for Q :) . Now this happens. No wonder if I will end up with SL(kidding)  :D
 
There are no reasons it has to be Leica, but I couldn't find any competitors. Every detail matters to me. Even Leica isn't perfect.
I'm not doing large prints right now, but I'm planning to.
 
Thanks!
Edited by kamilmanafov
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This is gonna be my first serious camera. I'm shooting street with my iPhone :D .
Firstly I was between X100T and Q and decided to go for Q :) . Now this happens. No wonder if I will end up with SL(kidding)  :D
 
There are no reasons it has to be Leica, but I couldn't find any competitors. Every detail matters to me. Even Leica isn't perfect.
I'm not doing large prints right now, but I'm planning to.
 
Thanks!

 

 

Photography is less about the camera and equipment and more about learning. Learning from other artists, learning from the history of photography and its masters and finding your vision and voice.

 

Eric Kims site http://erickimphotography.com/blog/ is a fun place to start. Or here http://erickimphotography.com/blog/equipment/. And defiantly here http://erickimphotography.com/blog/2013/03/25/what-to-consider-when-buying-a-new-camera-for-street-photography/

 

The better question is not which camera but whats everybody on the Forum learning from these days? Pour over the Internet, its all there. If "Street Photography is your goal and joy .....study  Henri Cartier Bresson and his photos and the like  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henri_Cartier-Bresson ...but you don't have to copy his equipment to capture "the decisive moment". With today's technology you have no reason to.

 

If the goal is explore life through photography and have fun shooting the streets.......and maybe learn about yourself while enjoying your hobby. Choose a simpler camera, put the image first......and shoot, shoot, shoot, then decide which Leica is for you.....IMHO Leica is a terrible first camera.

 

If you just want a Leica .......get an M with a 35mm Summicron and don't worry about the next model. You have no reason to chase the latest technology......today's sensor is wonderful. I say get an M because if you don't pick the M you'll always think you should have.

 

But the best camera for getting started in Street Photography is one with an  auto focus, fixed lens....and you don't need to spend that much to get great photographs.  You'll get  more use from this style of camera.....making Street Photography more fun. If its fun you'll keep doing it, which is the only way to find your voice.

 

Do you currently know Lightroom,Photoshop or an editing program? These are very, very important tools .....in many ways more important than the camera choice.

 

This Forum an amazing group of Artists. Ask questions about technique that will aim you more in the direction of which camera is best for your purpose.

 

I hope this helps

Edited by ECohen
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My favourite camera was the Q until I got the M. Q has more modern sensor, the high ISO capabilities are much better etc.. but I love the rangefinder experience. This is why I am waiting the 18th of Jan to see a rangefinder with improved specs.

 

My GF hates M, she is not happy that I put the Q on sale :D

The new girlfriend will love the M.

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I wanted to go for full manual, thats why AF on Q is not a big advantage. 

I understand that M is more challenging camera, at the end I hope I will get used to it  :D

 

Used M bodies in a good condition are not that cheap, so I prefer to add some money and buy a new one instead.

If the new M won't change it's sensor, I will definitely go for M262 bundle.

 

Brend new m240 and m262 costs almost the same. Also if I buy a new body, I could get my VAT back, so the total price drops to the used body level.

 

Kamil

Actually the M is one of the best street cameras going, if you get yourself a Summicron 35mm or an Emarit 28mm set to f8 and zone focussed. No AF lag, just point and shoot with the M.
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Photography is less about the camera and equipment and more about learning. Learning from other artists, learning from the history of photography and its masters and finding your vision and voice.

 

Eric Kims site http://erickimphotography.com/blog/ is a fun place to start. Or here http://erickimphotography.com/blog/equipment/. And defiantly here http://erickimphotography.com/blog/2013/03/25/what-to-consider-when-buying-a-new-camera-for-street-photography/

 

The better question is not which camera but whats everybody on the Forum learning from these days? Pour over the Internet, its all there. If "Street Photography is your goal and joy .....study  Henri Cartier Bresson and his photos and the like  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henri_Cartier-Bresson ...but you don't have to copy his equipment to capture "the decisive moment". With today's technology you have no reason to.

 

If the goal is explore life through photography and have fun shooting the streets.......and maybe learn about yourself while enjoying your hobby. Choose a simpler camera, put the image first......and shoot, shoot, shoot, then decide which Leica is for you.....IMHO Leica is a terrible first camera.

 

If you just want a Leica .......get an M with a 35mm Summicron and don't worry about the next model. You have no reason to chase the latest technology......today's sensor is wonderful. I say get an M because if you don't pick the M you'll always think you should have.

 

But the best camera for getting started in Street Photography is one with an  auto focus, fixed lens....and you don't need to spend that much to get great photographs.  You'll get  more use from this style of camera.....making Street Photography more fun. If its fun you'll keep doing it, which is the only way to find your voice.

 

Do you currently know Lightroom,Photoshop or an editing program? These are very, very important tools .....in many ways more important than the camera choice.

 

This Forum an amazing group of Artists. Ask questions about technique that will aim you more in the direction of which camera is best for your purpose.

 

I hope this helps

 

 

Thanks for your time, very appreciate!
 
I totally agree with you about the gear, it’s just a tool, I understand that.
However, it’s all about emotions. If you enjoy your camera, probably you gonna pick it up more often -> more shoots and so on.
 
I read some topics in Eric Kim’s blog before, thank you for mentioning! Also found Thorsten Overgaard website very useful.
 
Didn’t understand why you called Leica terrible first camera? Since it’s all manual it forces you to learn all the basics which is good, isn't it?
 

 

I have no experience with Lightroom yet and just a little with Photoshop, most of the time I've used VSCO and Snapseed on my iPhone and Photo app on Mac OS.
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"Didn’t understand why you called Leica terrible first camera? Since it’s all manual it forces you to learn all the basics which is good, isn't it?"
 
True enough but learning photography is a very big skill . It is actually a series of small skills, most having nothing to do with the camera. And mastering each of them gets you to your end goal. Hopefully it is the photograph......a well designed, technically crafted photograph.
 
I assume learning the craft of photography is why you want a camera as apposed to a continuing on with a cell phone? Once you have leaned the craft of digital photography you wont have to ask which camera to buy you will know from the experience of using many. Again  forgive me for making assumptions but if money is of no concern than by all means go with Leica and a bunch of lenses.......Have you priced lenses? Does it matter that Leica is 5 times more expensive than other manufactures? How do you know what focal lengths you want to own if you have no experience with them all? The IQ of an M and Leica lenses are wonderful but its not 5 times better than many other cameras...especially when you don't know what you don't know ....yet
What about the weight? Do you care that its heavy a lot heaver than your iPhone? You may want to start with a lighter more stealthy an easier to use camera?
With an M the Jpgs are not so good...... you OK with shooting DNGs.  Do you really need a 60M file? ......I think your putting the cart before the horse.
 
If you want to learn and enjoy Street Photography try a $300 Ricoh GRD IV  has a very sharp 28mm lens f/1.9 lens (or something like it).
It will get you started and you can for $300 see if you like a 28mm lens (or its equivalent ).
Take time learning Lightroom. Learn how to make your own Black and White conversions. Try a lot of different focal lengths....Study the masters. Learn all those little skills that make up Digital Photography
 
Then go buy an M and a couple of YOUR favorite lenses........by then you will be wondering, if you should wait for the Leica model after the one you thinking of waiting for now.
And by then .....you shouldn't wait an M is a Joy to shoot with.
 
Just my 2 cents and that just what its worth .......only you can decide
Edited by ECohen
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If the Q fits your needs perfectly I'd get the Q. I'd imagine the M would be more of a want?

 

I have a M9-P, M262, and Q. It depends on what your definition of "versatility" is, but I feel the Q is the more versatile and capable camera by far.

 

With a Q, you get:

- accurate framing

- accurate and blazingly fast autofocus

- option to shoot in shutter speed priority mode

- option to shoot in full auto exposure mode

- more metering options (M262 only has center-weighted metering)

- optical image stabilization

- macro capability of focusing down to 18cm

- e-shutter speeds up to 1/16000s

- video

- lighter weight

 

The advantages of the M262 are:

- the rangefinder experience

- more lens options

 

I must warn you that the learning curve of shooting with a rangefinder is extremely steep. I understand that you're intrigued by the mystique but many people realize quickly how challenging it is and end up selling with regret. You need to learn how to deal with inaccurate framing, field curvature, inability to focus closer than 70cm, etc etc. And although there are many lens options, a rangefinder is really meant to be shot in the 28-90mm range. Anything wider or longer you'd want some sort of framing or focusing aid (external OVF, EVF, magnifier)

 

Shooting with a Leica M means you are ready to deal with all the compromises of a rangefinder for the experience. My advice would be to rent a M for a week and see if it's for you.

Edited by Mr.Q
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   I suggest you to wait till the 18 th of Jan ( next week ) for the next M.

 

   Some wants to have the SL/Q like sensor in a M body and the next M will probably have one, so you can have the Q/SL sensor in a compact body with interchangable lens option.

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Agreed: wait until 18th to see new spec M (but delivery?).

 

The Q can be used all-manually with focus, setting aperture and then trying to read the relatively small scale at the base of the screen (flashes red if f-stop is going to over/under-expose. But that's no substitute for the left-right red circles of M exposure-setting!

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If the Q fits your needs perfectly I'd get the Q. I'd imagine the M would be more of a want?

 

I have a M9-P, M262, and Q. It depends on what your definition of "versatility" is, but I feel the Q is the more versatile and capable camera by far.

 

With a Q, you get:

- accurate framing

- accurate and blazingly fast autofocus

- option to shoot in shutter speed priority mode

- option to shoot in full auto exposure mode

- more metering options (M262 only has center-weighted metering)

- optical image stabilization

- macro capability of focusing down to 18cm

- e-shutter speeds up to 1/16000s

- video

- lighter weight

 

The advantages of the M262 are:

- the rangefinder experience

- more lens options

 

I must warn you that the learning curve of shooting with a rangefinder is extremely steep. I understand that you're intrigued by the mystique but many people realize quickly how challenging it is and end up selling with regret. You need to learn how to deal with inaccurate framing, field curvature, inability to focus closer than 70cm, etc etc. And although there are many lens options, a rangefinder is really meant to be shot in the 28-90mm range. Anything wider or longer you'd want some sort of framing or focusing aid (external OVF, EVF, magnifier)

 

Shooting with a Leica M means you are ready to deal with all the compromises of a rangefinder for the experience. My advice would be to rent a M for a week and see if it's for you.

Extremely steep? I beg to differ. Yesterday it took me all of twenty seconds to explain it to a photographer who had never used an RF before. He took ten shots - 8 were focused perfectly. It is more of a mindset than a learning curve.

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Extremely steep? I beg to differ. Yesterday it took me all of twenty seconds to explain it to a photographer who had never used an RF before. He took ten shots - 8 were focused perfectly. It is more of a mindset than a learning curve.

 

Focusing a stationary object is only part of the equation. How about learning about the inaccuracies of framing, metering, and dealing with field curvature? .Could you explain all that in 20 seconds?  It's not a mindset but a learning curve.  You're not helping a beginner by pretending that shooting with a M camera is easy.  It's not easy.

Edited by Mr.Q
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Focusing a stationary object is only part of the equation. How about learning about the inaccuracies of framing, metering, and dealing with field curvature? .Could you explain all that in 20 seconds?  It's not a mindset but a learning curve.  You're not helping a beginner by pretending that shooting with a M camera is easy.  It's not easy.

 

Only one of those points is specific to a rangefinder - the framing. Lens curvature and metering apply to all cameras.

 

I'd say understanding an M is easier than most other types of camera. The simplicity of it is what appeals to a lot of people in the first place.

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Focusing a stationary object is only part of the equation. How about learning about the inaccuracies of framing, metering, and dealing with field curvature? .Could you explain all that in 20 seconds?  It's not a mindset but a learning curve.  You're not helping a beginner by pretending that shooting with a M camera is easy.  It's not easy.

 

 

Like Jaapv said, it really isn't all that hard. Sure, the framing and metering have a little getting used to, but there isn't anything mythical about using a rangefinder. 

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Like Jaapv said, it really isn't all that hard. Sure, the framing and metering have a little getting used to, but there isn't anything mythical about using a rangefinder. 

 

Coming from DSLR's and MILC's It was really hard for me at first. All I'm saying is that the OP should rent before deciding. 

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