Metering for M4

[Infantasy]

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Hi guys, I recently looking for a M4 but doubt in using without built-in light meter. Without adding an external meter, could anyone suggest a faster method for metering or could you share you experience. Thanks.

[madNbad]

Sunny 16 will only take you so far so a meter will be a necessity if you want an M4.  You could find a working MR-4 which will couple with the shutter speed dial or a more modern Voigtlander VC II that fits in the accessory shoe.  There are any number of hand held from the diminutive Sekonic 208 Twinmate or Gossen Digisix or the Sekonic 308 which is a bit larger but still convenient.  Mostly there is no easy work around unless you buy an MP or another metered M body.  

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[mikemgb]

madNbad has some good suggestions for some accessory light meters, but I will disagree with him over sunny 16. 

 

Sunny 16 (or sunny 11 in more northern latitudes) and practice can go a long way, especially if you are using negative film with a wide exposure latitude. Once you have figured out things like the fact there is a four stop difference between a sunlit object and the shadow cast by that object, or that the interior of an office needs ISO 400 1/30 at F2, the rest can be calculated from those base readings.

 

I shoot a IIIa with no meter. I do generally take 2 readings using an iPhone app when I first go out, one of a highlight area, one of a shadow area, after that I can adjust the exposure as necessary as the light changes.

 

I would suggest you download an app for a smart phone, or buy a basic incident meter then spend some time and a few rolls of film guessing what you think the exposure is and comparing that guess with the meter. After a while you'll find your guesses are almost the same as the meter every time.

 

The first time you shoot an entire roll using sunny 16 and every shot is perfectly exposed is a wonderful experience!

[spydrxx]

I had my M4 for 40 years. Started out without a meter, but shortly thereafter got a MR-4 which I used for a number of years. Since I usually made notes of meter readings for my shots (mostly Kodachrome slides), I began to notice exposure patterns, and they matched the Sunny 16 guidelines, at least in most daylight shots. I had been aware from the beginning about adjustments to metering for dark/light subjects, as well as slight underexposure for slides. Eventually I sold the meter, although I kept a Sekonic handheld one I had acquired, but rarely used. I eventually discovered the Ultimate Exposure Calculator and stuck a copy in my bag. I've rarely used a meter since (with older manual non-metered cameras), and been quite happy with the results. I periodically retest myself when using a metered body and it seems that I'm usually right on the button guessing the proper exposure before metering it. To make a long story short, if you feel you need training wheels, by all means get them, they will help in the beginning...but be prepared to discard them as you gain experience.

[michaelwj]

I've only been Sunny 16ing for a year or so, and outside it's pretty easy. A tip I was told was to look at the shadows rather than the sun, a hard shadow is f/16, while diffuse shadows are f/5.6 and so on.

Once inside though, I use an incident light meter to get a base, then go up and down from there. I now know that the daytime in my house is1/60, f/2.0, ISO 250 for example, at night with the lights on is two stops open.

So I suppose I'm saying that a meter will help get your confidence, but soon enough you'll notice you know what it's going to say before you look at it. The trick then is knowing when you might need the meter.

[250swb]

Hi guys, I recently looking for a M4 but doubt in using without built-in light meter. Without adding an external meter, could anyone suggest a faster method for metering or could you share you experience. Thanks.

 

If you are new to a camera with no meter you want to work with actual knowledge, the facts, not messing about with 'Sunny 16'. You are learning, cutting out as many of the variables or uncertainties as possible is important, so you need a meter. Two excellent suggestions have been made above, the Sekonic 208 Twinmate, or the Sekonic 308, I have both and for your first meter I would recommend the 308. A hand held meter has a distinct advantage, you can meter from nearby surroundings without lifting the camera to your eye or even before you take the camera out the bag. And it is then easy to meter a few different areas and get a picture in your mind of all the metering options, so going from sun into shade, etc.

 

After a while you start to anticipate the meter readings which is where you develop your own more sophisticated version of 'Sunny 16' in that you recognise the light levels and can equate them all to a combination of speed and aperture. But you should still continue to use a meter whenever conditions are difficult to guess or where there is a wide range of light in one scene, a meter can be used to 'average' the scene and bias your exposure towards how the film will be developed.

[TomB_tx]

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I used my M4 for decades without a meter, and using a single film and EI I could judge well. But switching to other films (especially slides) I'd use my Leicaflex SL, or at least use it to meter. Not much latitude shooting slides, but even so, if you stick with a single film type you do calibrate your eye.

When getting back to film and finding my old films no longer available, I added an MR4 to my M4, and appreciate it. Indoors I'll meter a room, then work by eye, adjusting for tone.

For my LTM bodies I use either the VCII or Digisix.

[vanGeist]

My choice when it comes to meterless cameras is my trusty Minolta Autometer IV, either with the 5° spot attachement or the dome for ambient metering. It's precise up to one tenth of a stop, lightweight and very handy.

[arno_nyhm]

now, all suggstions have been made:

 

-you can either start without a meter, trying to estimate correct exposure by the sunny-f-16-rule

-or you can just buy a handheld meter, use your smartphine with a meteringapp or go for a leicameter.

 

are you smarter now?

 

i suggest, you download one of those apps for your batteryphone if you have one and ask uncle google about the sunny-f-16-rule. then you go out in your next lunchbrake and try to use that sunny-f-16-rule while checking your results by using your smartphone. you will soon find out, which way of estimating your exposure comes closer to the way you pefer to meter. you may the decide on your own:

 

are you willing to use an extra device for metering? then continue to use your phone or get an extra meter, maybe one of those suggestested sekonics or maybe you get one of those leicameters wich couple to your M4 to give at least time-coupled readings.

 

or are you daring enough to give the sunny-f-16 a try and take a testfilm just relaying on what you read somwhere n the internet?

 

which way did i go?

 

after learning from my father, that there is no reliable way uf "suggersting" or "estimating" the correct exposure without using any kind of metering, i proceeded as learned for 20 years of analog photography. automatic or at least coupled readings was the way to do it. i wouldnt even touch a camera without metering. a Canonet QL17 GIII was as close as i could get to rangefinderphotography.

 

but finally after moving out from home and finding my own way, i happened to come across an old IIIc that -of course- didnt have any way of lightmetering at all. while neither having a smartphone by that time nor having a lightmeter handy, but having that IIIc lying around the house, i had no other choice than finding out, how they estimated exposure back in the times of my new--to-me IIIc. and i found out about sunny-f-16 and started learning about it. to my surprise, i was complete with learning it after an hour or two. and then i went out to test my newly accessed knowledge.

 

since then i rely on sunny-f-16 whenever i use my IIIc or M2. but of course i got myself all kinds of metering devices. i got several goosen meters or leicameters. but i hardly use them. just because i only need them for E6-films, but i hardly use those. for black and white, i dont need no metering at all, it only confuses me.

 

but that is only the way, that i found for myself. go and find your own way. and that m3eans: you have to try it yourself.

[Fotoklaus]

Gossen Digisix. Small, convenient, fast. One "click", one turn, and you´re done. With a "Digiflash" you are also able meter Flashlights precisely.

The whole thing with "sunny 16" is nice if there is a sunny day, but to be honestly, lightmeters are not there for nothing.

[LorenzoLandini]

While I may understand your concerns of using a camera without a light meter, especially if you have been using a camera that does everything (except popcorn :-), the reality is that using a camera without a light meter is not a big deal provided that you want to spend a bit of time in learning and understanding what you're doing. 

 

With experience you don't need a light meter. I think few people would be comfortable doing that because generally most of us have been using cameras with light meter for quite some time now and either we no longer have the "eye" for it or we never built that skill set. And as mentioned before, lightmeters are not there for nothing. 

 

Without experience you have two easy options (technically three): (i) you get a fancy Leica meter MR-4 if you want to use the camera with its original leica meter for the experience or for the look (of the camera), or (ii) you use your phone which is more than enough (you can buy any other light meter as a third option as suggested above, but I honestly think it is not necessary in these days - unless you already have one or you want one). 

 

Light doesn't change that quickly to require frequent metering (unless is windy with shadows on and off). What changes is your point of view and whether you're shooting a scene more in the shadows, or against the light, etc. and you will quickly learn how to adjust the exposure by 1 or 2 stops up and down. But the light is still the same. 

 

It would be a different story if you do landscape photography in black and white and you use the zone system, then you need a spot meter and probably you would be using a different camera. 

 

Regardless of what you will end up using, sticking with one film will help you in figuring out exposures on your own. Additionally, slides give you less flexibility because of the limited dynamic range, by contrary negatives B&W are better because they give you a great latitude and even if you're off by a couple of stops you can easily get the tight image anyway, either in the dark room or in light room. 

 

cheers

[michaelwj]

but to be honestly, lightmeters are not there for nothing.

 

 

Sure, they are to make life easier. The same way that autofocus, autoexposure, auto film rewind, etc ... are there to make life easier. But you can shoot perfectly fine without these things with a little practice. 

[pico]

I used a hand-held light meter for decades (Gossen Lunasix among others.) Oh, I felt so good with my hand metering until I got my first M7.  I was amazed by how much better the M7 performed than I did. I print my own B&W and am strident about quality. The M7 (I have three now) did a better job. This post might reveal how stupid/dim I am or it might be a testimonial to Leica's BTL metering. It's up to you.

.

[TomB_tx]

Back in the late 1960s I went out with a group of experienced Leica shooters along with the Leica Rep who brought the then new Leicaflex SL. After processing our reaction was like Pico's: we all saw the advantage to Leica's limited area TTL metering. As I left school I traded my other SLRs for an SL to go with my M4.

[Guest]

Hi guys, I recently looking for a M4 but doubt in using without built-in light meter. Without adding an external meter, could anyone suggest a faster method for metering or could you share you experience. Thanks.

 

If you only think of precise and fast exposure metering or using filters, - especially for slide films - buy an M6 and forget any M without TTL-metering.

After having bought an M6, my M3 was only used as back up or as a second housing for films with different ISO.

And the rucksack MR-4 meter destroys any aesthetics of an M.

Particularly troublesome becomes the handling, if you need its place for an external viewfinder.

[gberger]

Using a hand-held meter, such as a Sekonic 308, gives you the capability to meter for either incident or reflective situations. IMO, essential for transparencies. 

[Infantasy]

Thank you all for your reply. I have downloaded App in my iPhone and comparing the metering from App against my guess.

[philipus]

I have tried several of the metering apps and find them generally to be completely adequate, even for when shooting transparency film. Currently I use iZoner and Light Meter, both of which permit spot metering.

 

I only wanted to plug for what I find a useful non-metering app, Expositor. There are probably several similar ones, but I think this one is really cleverly done, from how the sliders are set up to the many examples given for each exposure value which help memorising typical scenes to correspond to the EVs.

 

Good luck with the shooting and don't forget to post pictures in the forum's most active thread, the I love film thread.

 

Philip

 

Thank you all for your reply. I have downloaded App in my iPhone and comparing the metering from App against my guess.

[RayD28]

madNbad has some good suggestions for some accessory light meters, but I will disagree with him over sunny 16. 

 

Sunny 16 (or sunny 11 in more northern latitudes) and practice can go a long way, especially if you are using negative film with a wide exposure latitude. Once you have figured out things like the fact there is a four stop difference between a sunlit object and the shadow cast by that object, or that the interior of an office needs ISO 400 1/30 at F2, the rest can be calculated from those base readings.

 

I shoot a IIIa with no meter. I do generally take 2 readings using an iPhone app when I first go out, one of a highlight area, one of a shadow area, after that I can adjust the exposure as necessary as the light changes.

 

I would suggest you download an app for a smart phone, or buy a basic incident meter then spend some time and a few rolls of film guessing what you think the exposure is and comparing that guess with the meter. After a while you'll find your guesses are almost the same as the meter every time.

 

The first time you shoot an entire roll using sunny 16 and every shot is perfectly exposed is a wonderful experience!

 

 

I have an M3 and 50 DR.  Purchased about 18 months ago.  I wanted to get close using Sunny 16.  I study the tables so it came down to assessing the light.  At that time a local Walgreens developed BW within one hour and gave you a disc with images and the negatives.  About a month afterwards they went to disc only and now they ship everything out of the store so there is a five day turnaround.  Now I'm faced with mailing film to a store 80 miles away and at least a seven day turnaround.  It's difficult to critique myself with almost seven days between shooting and viewing shots.  I have a Voigtlander that mounts on the hot shoe and a Sekonic 308S.  However, I'd like to learn to get half-way decent shots using Sunny 16.

 

This past week I have carried the Sekonic when I'm outside a played a game by guessing the exposure and then comparing to the Sekonic.  Once I get a little more consistent I plan to shoot some BW film and see how I do.  I'll have to make written notes for exposure calculations but that won't be big deal.  

 

I've thought about developing film at home using a basic kit.  On the fence on this because I'm not sure if I'd have the time or patience.  

 

Infantasy, best wishes on whatever route you take.  

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Hallo,

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[mikemgb]

 

 

I've thought about developing film at home using a basic kit.  On the fence on this because I'm not sure if I'd have the time or patience.  

 

 

 

You can develop a black and white film at home in 30 minutes from set-up to clean-up. Then ait 2 hours for it to dry and another 30 minutes to scan. You get the satisfaction of doing it yourself, higher res scans than from Walgreens and you get to keep your negs.