50mm Summilux vs Summicron

[Bobby]

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I'm deciding whether I should get a 50mm Summilux or Summicron ASPH (not APO). 

 

I read on Ken Rockwell's blog that the Summicron is better in terms of sharpness, and similar things are said in other forums. 

 

Is that actually true and what is your experience with these lenses? In particular, how's the Summicron at f2?

Edited December 19, 2016 by Bobby

[CYBORA]

Summilux kicks ass.

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[jaapv]

As soon as somebody starts comparing lenses on "sharpness" you can be sure that the rest of the discourse is nonsense.

You can compare resolving power, micro- and macro contrast rendering, distortion, whatever.

You can compare MTF curves, or even better OTF diagrams, but "sharpness" is not quantifiable.

 

The best thing would be to use and compare the two for your own style and subjects.

Lacking that, the opinion of leading experts in the field can be valuable. Sean Reid springs to mind, and certainly an authority like Erwin Puts. But it would be foolish to base a purchasing decision on Internet bloggers of doubful reliability.

 

As for the two lenses you mention, you can not go wrong with either. Both are top class 50 mm lenses.

Purchasing one or the other is entirely determined by your need of a wider aperture or not.

[Peter Kilmister]

The advantage of the Summilux is f/1.4. The disadvantage is size and weight, although considerably smaller than the Noctilux (which is ridiculously huge).

 

One advantage of the APO Summicron is its compactness (size and weight). It feels much more balanced. The disadvantage is its cost, although resale value is much better

 

Both lenses produce excellent results from wide open and all through the range of exposures. Definition with both lenses is subjective and down to personal choice.

That said, I did do some tests last winter by using flash indoors on my tripod-mounted M-P 240. I shot a range of exposures from wide open to f/11 using first of all the Summilux and then the APO Summicron.

I think the definition of the APO Summicron is superior to the Summilux.

 

(Edited to use full lens names after jaapv's following post.)

Edited December 19, 2016 by Peter Kilmister

[jaapv]

Yes the Summicron APO is desiged to be as "transparant" as possible. OTOH the Summilux asph is often called "the best fast 50 in the world"

 

I would say there is no holding back anybody's photographic creativity with either.

 

(BTW., for the sake of those members who do not hold a full catalogue of Leica lenses in their memory, posts get more understandable if you use the proper names of the lenses. It makes it easier to retrieve the posts in search engines too.)

[Stealth3kpl]

I have both summilux asph and summicron mk5 but tend to use the summicron mk5 due to its size and character.

Peters

Edited December 19, 2016 by Stealth3kpl

[lct]

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Below f/4, the Summilux 50/1.4 asph is sharper in borders and corners than the Summicron 50/2 non-apo (v5). I don't see significant differences re sharpness in the center of the frame but 50/1.4 asph has no focus shift whereas 50/2 non-apo has a bit of it around f/4. Nothing to worry about on 3D subjects but may give the feeling that the lens is slightly softer there compared to the Summilux asph. Also the latter has less CA and less flare but it's OoF rendition is sharper around f/2-f/2.8 which can give a feeling of harshness contrary to the Summicron. Both excellent lenses anyway. If size matters the 50/2 v5 is significantly smaller and lighter but is beaten by the 50/2 v4 there although the separate hood of the latter adds to the bulk.

[Bobby]

Thanks a lot for the info. Lack of blogger's reliability is an issue and that is the reason I asked on this forum. 

 

I'm mostly deciding between the Summicron ASPH, not APO, and the Summilux. I think most people who say the Cron might be sharper usually talk about the APO. The APO is not an option since it is not available at the dealer and I'm trading some of my gear for it. 

[DBAUDUI1]

Hello,

I thin Ken had a bad sample of summilux 50 asph, on which he based his full appreciation of this lens. To me his evaluation is therefore not correct. I have the summilux 50 Asph black Chrome, as well as a summicron 50 (latest classic - type 4), and a summicron 50 type 2 as new. The summicron 50 type 2 has a typical signature: very sharp, but still soft. I use it mainly starting at 2.8, 4 and 5.6. At f2 it is softer than the summicron type 4, which is also very good but more contrasty than the 50mm type 2. To me the summicron type 2 is to be used when you want to keep a certain atmosphere (the years 60)and take pictures of people who dislike to see too sharp pictures of them. Actually with the summicron type 2, the photographs are still very sharp, but this sharpness is a bit softened as it is not too contrasty. The summicron type 4 on the contrary offers high contrast and high sharpness, which is sometimes too harsh to take portraits of people with some marks in their skin...

 

Then you have the summilux 50 Asph black chrome, which is really a joice to use (the most of all three) as it has the right size and weight and feels at ease on every Leica M. It is tack sharp even at f 1.4 and has the nicest bokeh of the three, with high contrast and nice colours even in the shadows. This lens is luminous, and to me is the best of all

three. It can also be used up to 70 cm, which is not the case of summicron type 2. I think the summilux 50 Asph takes the most advantage of the light to produce sharp images with nice colours even wide open. It is very sharp but nots harsh as the summicron type 4. It gives pictures with a modern look (colour, contrast, sharpness) and as it can be used wide open without restrictions, it produces a marvellous bokeh and a nice degradation of sharpness between the place that you selected to be sharp and the rest of the image. Of course, with the summilux you can isolate much more your main subject from the background, than with any summicron.

 

Have a nice day.

 

Dominique

[80_20]

As a fan of 50mm, I regularily use 0.95, 1.4 ASPH and 2.0 APO (and sometimes the vintage collapsible 2.0).

 

If was allowed to choose only one of them, I tend to go for the 1.4 ASPH, which is a very good compromise:

- it is not too big & heavy (compared to the 0.95), but able to produce a very nice bouquet also

- it is quite sharp and has a good contrast - and offers one stop more compared to the (really sharper & better contrast) 2.0 APO

 

Klaus

[mmradman]

Thanks a lot for the info. Lack of blogger's reliability is an issue and that is the reason I asked on this forum. 

 

I'm mostly deciding between the Summicron ASPH, not APO, and the Summilux. I think most people who say the Cron might be sharper usually talk about the APO. The APO is not an option since it is not available at the dealer and I'm trading some of my gear for it.

 

Hi Bobby,

 

As suggested in other replies it is important to define lens you enquire about precisely otherwise you are not getting relevant answer. The way I read you, you query about difference between 50mm Summilux which is f1.4 and Summicron which is f2. There are two current Summicrons, one is both APO and ASPH and other is not - you query about less exotic plain Summicron which is neither ASPH. nor APO.

 

I have copied link from Leica Wiki, five 50mm lens are listed as being current and in production, by the way you can find Wiki page on the front of the LUF webpage, it is wonderful resource, I spent many hours studying it before I bought my first Leica lens or camera.

 

http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-wiki.en/index.php/M_Lenses_x_Focal_Length

 

I don't have plain Summicron so I can't give you desired comparison, I would say you can't go wrong with most current or past M lenses, my favourite 50mm and probably favourite M lens is 50mm APO Summicron-ASPH.

 

You definitely can go wrong following advice from the likes of Ken ROCKWELL, OK to read for entertainment value and occasional grain of truth but all you are getting is load of opinions with some, no doubt, commercial interests involved.

[Per P.]

Personally I find the original question completely meaningless for deciding between two exceptionally good lenses. I agree with those who suggest it is a matter of deciding if the additional F-stop is worth the extra cost and size.

 

For what it is worth I originally had a Summicron and replaced it with a Summilux for two reasons: 1) A perceived occasional need for low light performance (M9), and 2) a very occasional but annoying lens flare. Apart from the flare my Summicron was wonderful.

[sblutter]

Am a long time Summi 50 fan (Ver 4, magnificent).  I picked up a 'Lux out of curiosty - but after 2 weeks of a sore shoulder, sold it (at a tiny profit) & picked up a 1.5 Voightlander for the very few times I need the extra stop (on 240 w/LV).  'Lux, to me, nowhere near worth the $

 

My other fav walk-around lenses are most recent 50 2.8 collapsible Elmar or the very underrated 40mm C, 2.0.  Lens quality hasn't improved all that much in 30 yrs - as judged by simply viewing larger scale prints for their aesthetic not technical qualities

 

I also use pre-WWII lenses, perfectly acceptable in decent light

[vanGeist]

I'm deciding whether I should get a 50mm Summilux or Summicron ASPH (not APO). 

 

I read on Ken Rockwell's blog that the Summicron is better in terms of sharpness, and similar things are said in other forums. 

 

Is that actually true and what is your experience with these lenses? In particular, how's the Summicron at f2?

As Ken Rockwell is not the president of photography, you may rent or lent both lenses and test them for yourself.

 

Anyway, there is no 50mm non-APO Summicron-M ASPH.

[Jon Pop]

The question isn't meaningless, nor is it relevant that there's a slight error about stating "Asph" for the regular non-apo 'Cron. This forum is full of questions regarding lens choices...and Leica has such a list of possibilities in 50mm. Certainly many are different animals...but if you're buying only one 50mm, the question is highly relevant, as is asking people's opinions and experiences. Sometimes people asking questions on this forum get roundly criticized for not 'formulating their question properly' or something. 

 

As for me, I have both the latest version Cron (with the pullout hood), and the Summilux Asph. The Summilux covers the most ground of course - it is good for a complete range of conditions (unless you just crave 0.95), produces beautiful bokeh (if that's your thing), and has good speed at f1.4 (can be important since Leica M digitals aren't known for high ISO, or if you're doing a lot of indoors/evening/night street shooting, etc.). It has great sharpness throughout (I don't care about micro-analysis and don't look at the top right 5% of a picture on a screen or a gallery, so have no idea), and a depth and contrast...it's a lens that I don't think the performance would leave anyone wanting for anything (unless they just want other 'looks', or to collect or be curious about other signatures, or need f1 or f0.95). It is a superb lens.

 

That being said, my first Leica lens was a 50mm Cron (an older version than the one I have now). I would have so much struggle getting rid of it, for reasons I know and some I don't.  I like the classic E39 filter size (not that E46 is any big deal mind you). And I love the quick focus, the weight and balance. It's incredibly classic; to me Leica + Summicron are a sort of 'foundational' combination...the 35 and 50 Summicron are (arguably) ultra-classic companions to the M, support the compact ethos, and are amongst the most enduring optical offerings in photography (since the 1950s). The signatures of both the Summilux and Summicron (in all versions) are different, as is the handling; for me at times it's more about making the choice and committing to exploring it for a long time.

[Exodies]

I don't understand the animosity towards Rockwell in the LUF. Before finding this forum I read his blog to decide which 3 lenses to buy to go with an M 240. I ended up with a 35 Summilux fle, 50 APO Summicron ASPH., and 90 APO Summicron. What the fuck, prey, is wrong with that advice? I'm very happy with the lenses.

Mind you, he is weird.

[jaapv]

No animosity - I find him quite funny from time to time. But reliability is another matter. I'm happy that you felt you were steered in the right direction, but I am convinced you could have made the choice on your own.

For the record - those three lenses would never  have been my first choice. I would choose the Summicron 35 asph - especially for the way it draws in low light- the Summilux 50 for its extra stop and character and an Elmarit-M 90 for the size. Actually I often have the Tele-Tessar 4.0/85 in my bag now because it is lighter, the Elmar-M 50 for the same reason and the Summilux 24 as I find 35 a bit close to 50 and it is my favourite lens of all time, despite its heft.

[lct]

I don't understand the animosity towards Rockwell in the LUF [...].

 

Animosity i don't know but statements like these are questionable to say the least:

 

"the M typ 240 has highlights with relatively little dynamic range that turn a dirty brownish-red if you attempt to recover extreme highlights"

http://www.kenrockwell.com/leica/m-240.htm

 

"For a 50mm lens, the 50mm SUMMICRON is much sharper than the 50mm SUMMILUX ASPH for nature and landscape shots."

http://www.kenrockwell.com/leica/m-240.htm

 

"The X100T has an exposure compensation dial. The LEICA does not, and expects the armchair shooters who own it to revert to a function button instead."

http://www.kenrockwell.com/fuji/x100t.htm

[Exodies]

I've not mastered highlight recovery either; dunno if it's possible.

Nature and landscape are usually a long way off so he's not talking about close focusing. I'm the wrong person to talk about sharpness.

Some folk can cope with the EC dial on the M 240 being always live but I find I roll it when picking the camera up. Hence my use is as Rockwell says, front button held in while rolling EC.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[Exodies]

<snip>Actually I often have the Tele-Tessar 4.0/85 in my bag now because it is lighter, the Elmar-M 50 for the same reason and the Summilux 24 as I find 35 a bit close to 50 and it is my favourite lens of all time, despite its heft.

I started lifting weights on a daily basis after ordering my M kit...