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M 35 FLE and 50 APO indoor shooting


freitz

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As the holidays come around I do a lot more indoor shooting. I have not been using a flash but will probably pick up the SL40 after this weekend with the family.

 

I find the 35FLE is far better at capturing the moment at an acceptable ISO and Shutter speed. I have a young child so at 50mm I can't shoot much lower 1/90th or 1/60th of a second. I find the 35mm to be about the same in average household lighting. As for iso I find that 1600 is the absolute highest I would ever shoot at but don't want to shoot more then 640 as it allows me to push the photo a little further in post without it breaking down.

 

Can anyone make a suggestion with how I could make this perform more to my benefit?

 

Thanks for the help.

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A 35/1.4 will always be better at capturing low light images than a 50/2. The depth of field of both lenses wide open is more or less the same, but the 35 is one stop faster, and you get another stop of "hand holdability". Of course the hand hold stop doesn't matter if you need to stop the subjects (kids) motion.

 

I'm not 100% sure what you're asking.

You need a shutter speed to stop the motion (1/90-1/60) and an aperture to get depth of field. The ISO goes as high as you need to satisfy the other two variables. If you don't want to push the ISO, then you need a flash (or change the light globes to make your house brighter!)

 

As a film shooter, I go to 1/15-1/30th at f/2-f/1.4 at ISO 250 and that gets me a good selection of keepers, but in the end, it either works or it doesn't. The only thing I can suggest is either accept some blur or noise. I'd go for noise.

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I find the even the 50 Noctilux ends up indoors only on par wth the 35/1.4 because of the need for a stop faster shutter and more critical focus.

I abhor flash and frequently wish for A7s like high ISO performance on my M9 ; that and a 35mm Noctilux.

 

If you are shooting for small prints or the screen, higher ISO with more noise reduction and downscaling may be the best you can do ( assuming B&W is not acceptable ).

 

Maybe todays Leica is not the right answer - even a mid range micro 43 like the GX80/85 is better than the M9 at high ISO ( and you get fast AF, IBIS and 4k video )

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I take it you are talking about an M9 here?

This image

 

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was shot (with the Summilux75) at 1/30 @ F1.4 with ISO160 and was underexposed 2,67 stops and pushed afterwards in CaptureOne with the same amount. My theory: you can better underexpose and push in postprocessing than shoot this scene at ISO1000, because the latter would have given much more noise.

Except for busy children you can easily shoot at 1/15 with the 35FLE, which is about one and a half slower than the rule 1/focal length, as is the case here with the 75lux. I use a ThumbsUp though which delivers much less movement-blur with heavy lenses than without it.

Edited by otto.f
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Thanks everyone for the replies; I actually shoot with the M240. I probably spend way to much time pixel peeping for anything higher then 1600 iso. I've had issues trying to underexpose and bringing the picture up, because I way underexpose. 

 

Ill see if I can get a picture up, but we were putting up the Christmas tree and my daughter is 16 months old, so she sits still for a half a second. I at 50mm I need to usually be at about 1/60 or 1/90th to get the motion stop. At 640 iso I got a great image on the 35 FLE at 800 ISO on the 50 apo It wasn't usable... That is where I am a little confused. I would think for one the APO would handle shadows and dark area's are better and also be able to push the apo photos a little further. On anything higher then 640 iso I find the image falls apart in post.

 

Hopefully this gave more clarification on what I am asking.

 

Thanks again.

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In the long ago days when my daughter was the age of yours, there were no digital cameras...so determining how to stop action with kids was a function of using the right film (ISO) and knowing how to properly use a flash. What I learned was that direct flash was a no-no, so learned about bounce flash, either off the ceiling or an adjacent wall. At that time I used a small flash in the camera shoe which had a moveable head, today I use a much more powerful one of the hammerhead variety and with an auto sensor. My early shots were either with a 35 Summaron at about f/8 or a 135 Tele-Elmar. Attached is a sample of what I expected from this setup (M4 + either Plus-x or Tri-x, can't remember which), and what I usually got. So practice a litle and you should be well rewarded.

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...

was shot (with the Summilux75) at 1/30 @ F1.4 with ISO160 and was underexposed 2,67 stops and pushed afterwards in CaptureOne with the same amount. My theory: you can better underexpose and push in postprocessing than shoot this scene at ISO1000, because the latter would have given much more noise.

...

I think this will work on the M240 as well as on the M9, Even better probably because the M240 sensor has more latitude.

Put your camera on 1/60 and set the ISO on ISO 200 (Auto Iso off)

You will now underexpose in most indoor shots, but as long as you use F2.0 or so, the amount of underexposure can be fixed in PP.

 

The advantage of doing this is that you can now push your shots just as much as needed. At least you avoid using ISO 640 and overexposure by accident. (in that case you would have used more noise than necessary) And in most cases PP high ISO is better than the same effect by using the ISO setting.

 

Of course it takes some guts to shoot images when you can not see much on the LCD display because they might be underexposed by several stops :)

Edited by dpitt
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Thanks everyone for the replies; I actually shoot with the M240. I probably spend way to much time pixel peeping for anything higher then 1600 iso. I've had issues trying to underexpose and bringing the picture up, because I way underexpose. 

 

Ill see if I can get a picture up, but we were putting up the Christmas tree and my daughter is 16 months old, so she sits still for a half a second. I at 50mm I need to usually be at about 1/60 or 1/90th to get the motion stop. At 640 iso I got a great image on the 35 FLE at 800 ISO on the 50 apo It wasn't usable... That is where I am a little confused. I would think for one the APO would handle shadows and dark area's are better and also be able to push the apo photos a little further. On anything higher then 640 iso I find the image falls apart in post.

 

Hopefully this gave more clarification on what I am asking.

 

Thanks again.

 

Firstly, yes, you spend too much time pixel-peeping and it making you unhappy with what would otherwise be great images of your daughter. Try to print a higher ISO shot and i think you'll be pleasantly surprised. I'm sure your spouse would not notice the noise in what I am sure are beautiful pictures of your family growing up.

 

Secondly, I think you are looking too much into small details about the lens characteristics (underlined statement). In reality, these subtle differences are being outweighed by everything else, a different focal length, maximum aperture, even the smallest difference in the scene will be far more important than the rending differences between two very fine modern lenses.

 

So my advice is still to get the shot at whatever ISO you need (or push it in post). A noisy shot is infinitely better than no shot at all. These are precious memories, and the photos will remind you of so much more. My daughter is now five, and when I look back at the photos of her shot on film at 1/15 or even 1/8 and f/2, they bring back so many memories. Yes, they are grainy, and blurry, and technically not the best, but they carry such a great feeling for me and my family.

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So my advice is still to get the shot at whatever ISO you need (or push it in post). A noisy shot is infinitely better than no shot at all. These are precious memories, and the photos will remind you of so much more. My daughter is now five, and when I look back at the photos of her shot on film at 1/15 or even 1/8 and f/2, they bring back so many memories. Yes, they are grainy, and blurry, and technically not the best, but they carry such a great feeling for me and my family.

This.

 

And thanks for cutting to the chase,

s-a

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This is the way to go in photography:

Step 1 Buy the camerabrand that suits you most, also because it has the best lenses

Step 2 Once you have that expensive equipment, forget about all the tests, reviews, MTF diagrams, etc. and concentrate on the essentials of imagemaking, which is indeed composition and decisive moment. Noise can bring a positive contribution to the whole sphere of the image too

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How are you processing the files? RAW files into LR shot at ISO 3200 has virtually no grain at all, I shoot at 3200 on the M240 and 12800 on the SL frequently for corporate work and weddings with no issues. 

 

Perhaps try firing a flash into the ceiling that way the lighting will be similar to the lights there already. Or perhaps is an LED light panel, that way you will see what you get (again bounced off a wall/ceiling)

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I'm in a similair situation (actually bought my M240 when I went on paternity leave with my then 1 year old daughter). I find the Summilux FLE 35 very good for shooting kids, and yes, they move a lot! I usually shot with these settings when I'm shooting indoor:

Auto iso:

Max ISO 3200 (if you worry about noise set it to 2500, shot RAW+jpeg for quick reviews but work with the raw files for the keepers, and yes, printing 3200ISO is usually no big problem, don't push the noise reduction to much, it might "look good" on the screen but in print noise is actually not that bad)

Min 1/60 (or 1/90)

I usually have the camera set a auto ISO for these ocasions. And I usually shot f1.4-f2. That way you can concentrate on focussing on nearest eye all the time, which is more than challeging enough some times :)

 

I've shown this photo (shot with lux FLE) before here but here it is again:

10132795955_8d6fd3b7d6_b_d.jpg

Edited by mmx_2
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In the good old days of Tri-X at 400iso, the rule of thumb was F2.8 by 1/60. With your M without flash or lightmeter. You could use a yellow filter to gain one stop in tungsten light. And people made great shots back then.

So why would it all be so difficult anno 2016?!?

Edited by otto.f
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It's different these days because we use colour, not Tri-X! You can get away with more noise in B&W than colour digital. That said, my AutoISO limit on the M240 is 3200, and 12500 on the SL; believe me, as my daughters have started adding to the world's population in the last few years I have taken many photos of their offspring with exactly the same camera and lens combos as the OP.

 

Edit: I would challenge the OP's wish for faster shutter speeds. Of course, the faster the better, but I find with rugrats indoors that anticipating the infinitesimally short static moment (e.g. as their attention becomes fixed on something new, as they change what they're doing etc) can produce better shots than a shot of them in full flight. But I realise this is a personal thing.

Edited by LocalHero1953
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Available light indoor. Lux 35/1.4 Asph.

 

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Available light indoor. Lux 50/1.4 Asph.

 

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Available light indoor. Lux 50/1.4 Asph. (all three on M 240)

 

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