Vertical bands. Inversion error?

[Wayne]

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The photo was taken using Kentmere ASA 400 film and developed in Rodinal. Mix was 1/25. Development time was 9 minutes. I inverted two times initially and once per minute following. Reels were Paterson plastic.

 

What are the possible causes of the vertical bands?

 

Thanks.

 

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[TomB_tx]

What camera and shutter speed? With 400 film the shutter may have been very fast, and old shutters can get a bit uneven in curtain speed, which can cause a similar effect with a narrow slit between the curtains.

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[Wayne]

If I recall correctly, I was shooting at about f9 or so to keep shutter speeds at 200 or less. The camera has undergone recent CLA, but I do take your point on tired old equipment. I suppose, given the uniformity of the bands, it does suggest a mechanical problem, rather than random chemistry problem.

 

My goal is to produce, to the greatest extent possible, the look of older photographs. Lens was a 50mm 2.5 Hektor LTM.

 

Thanks for the response.

[mikemgb]

That is most likely insufficient agitation. You should agitate continuously for one minute as soon as you add the developer, then for 10 seconds every minute after that.

 

An uneven shutter will cause horizontal lines, I have some examples of that from my IIIa before I did a DIY CLA on it.

Edited November 26, 2016 by mikemgb

[chris_livsey]

Capping shutters are most common with a band at one end or other or top or bottom depending on direction of shutter in the camera, (unless a copal shutter!!)You don't specify camera

These don't look like capping nor a stuttering shutter which is rare, where the slit varies across the gate.

My suspect is your agitation, is this your usual regime and does this usually work for you? Where are you getting that regime from?

It is IMHO not enough, most manufacturers of film recommend a range of inversions with two being the absolute minimum both at the start and each minute. Google both Kodak and lford they have good guides on their techinical data sheets 

So 4 to start then 4 each minute is reasonable but varies with how you invert/agitate but once per minute is below most recommendations (excluding stand which is another subject)

Both grain and contrast will tend to increase with agitation so depending on your target you need to find what works for you, and then be consistent.

 

Top of page 3 agitating rolls http://imaging.kodakalaris.com/sites/prod/files/files/resources/j109.pdf

 

See step 10 page 10 http://www.ilfordphoto.com/webfiles/200629163442455.pdf

 

I am sorry if you have previously had good results and this is a one off and this is too basic but if you have been getting away with that degree of agitation without visible problems you have been very lucky.

[Keith (M)]

My everyday agitation method for Rodinal is for 30secs of gentle inversions (typically 9) at the start, followed by 10 secs of gentle inversions (typically 3) every minute.  The only time I have had a problem with Rodinal was when I changed that method to two reversal every 2.5 minutes - the result being unsightly marks along the top edge of the roll.   

[gbealnz]

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Yep, me too. Usual is Rodinal (R09 now though).

For the first minute gentle inversions.

Thereafter invert every 30 secs.

Gentle inversions though, not cocktail style.

Works for me, has for 50 years.

Gary

[250swb]

If exaggerated the bands would probably correspond to the sprocket holes in the film edge. It's a strong mix 1/25, try inversion then a swirl, invert swirl, invert swirl, and so on.

[EoinC]

My everyday agitation method for Rodinal is for 30secs of gentle inversions (typically 9) at the start, followed by 10 secs of gentle inversions (typically 3) every minute.  The only time I have had a problem with Rodinal was when I changed that method to two reversal every 2.5 minutes - the result being unsightly marks along the top edge of the roll.   

This is the method I use, also. 30s initial, then 3 inversions each minute. Inversions are gentle with a palm-to-palm twist.

[Wayne]

Thanks for the responses. My general inversion process is constant and repeated inversion for the first 30 seconds, followed by one inversion every minute. I am not certain what is meant by "gentle" inversion, but would not consider mine to be gentle, taking only a second or two to complete an inversion.

 

I have determined it is likely not a shutter problem. The same bands are appearing on negatives from my contessa.

 

The camera used in my OP was a IIIA

Edited December 13, 2016 by Wayne

[semi-ambivalent]

Both grain and contrast will tend to increase with agitation so depending on your target you need to find what works for you, and then be consistent.

0.5 grams of borax added to the developer (Rodinal, 500mL of working mix), can "help" a lot with the grain. Some people, like me, like grain. About the streaking I agree with others; it's likely your agitation regimen. Nice grain in the image btw.

 

s-a

[250swb]

Thanks for the responses. My general inversion process is constant and repeated inversion for the first 30 seconds, followed by one inversion every minute. I am not certain what is meant by "gentle" inversion, but would not consider mine to be gentle, taking only a second or two to complete an inversion.

 

I have determined it is likely not a shutter problem. The same bands are appearing on negatives from my contessa.

 

The camera used in my OP was a IIIA

You have just described your problem.

 

Rapid or aggressive inversion makes the developer rush over the sprocket holes in the film and localised bands of over/under developed emulsion appear as 'hot spots'. As you are only inverting once every minute you aren't washing the emulsion surface with fresh developer evenly so these bands become exaggerated. Even with a 120 film that has no sprocket holes you can get the same effect because on all reels there will be features that can cause localised turbulence. So gently invert, this gives time for the developer to mix top to bottom, then a swirl to rotate the developer in the tank. And as I said before, you are using a strong mix of developer and this itself exaggerates the problem, with a weaker 1/50 mix you may get away with the way you agitate and not see any banding.

Edited December 15, 2016 by 250swb

[david strachan]

As Steve says.  Feel for the fluid and the "washing" of the developer, gentle but definite in all directions. No eddies or vortices. I've mucked up my fair share too, but no more.

I prefer to work with more dilute mixes, and usually just do it on a roller-rocker machine for 20 minutes or so..while I have coffee, or a glass of vino.

 

Unfortunately it is a long and intense curve of film understanding.  Once F-uped, can't go back to rescue the negs.

 

Next time you'll be better.

 

all the best...

[Wayne]

Thanks again for everybody's time and knowledge. I think I will try a weaker solution and gentler agitation.

 

Best

 

Wayne

[pico]

Is this by chance a vertical shot cropped? I ask because the dark band could be from developer 'surging' during agitation. That happens most easily when the tank is not quite full and/or the reel moves. Best practice is to fill the tank with just a big bubble under the top cap. The bubble acts to agitate the developer adequately.

 

In my 8-reel Nikkor (sp?) tank I put a spare cap over the top reel to obviate surging. I do not advise fine-artists to develop 35mm in an 8-reel tank. I was a PJ. We were slobs, but lovable.)

 

(The comment regarding shutter capping or rebound is still an attractive solution. I've never had it.)

Edited December 19, 2016 by pico

[Wayne]

No. It is not a vertical shot. I do not believe I cropped at all with this shot.